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Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

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It's crazy to think back at how venerated Whedon was in the online geek/nerd culture community, even just a few years ago. I think one lesson to take away from this is how unwise it is to put these people up on a pedestal just because they happened to make a TV show or movie you enjoyed. We're all guilty of celebrity worship to some degree, it's one of the most ubiquitous sins in our society, but among many other things the MeToo movement has shown how misplaced and dangerous it can be.

Or, more to the truth, he was venerated in the geek/nerd culture for a reason he was one of them. As we have learned over the past decade, being in that culture does not necessarily mean he is a good guy. It is quite clear that he was always one of the "nice guy" nerds.


I forgot which movie I was watching when I caught his name in the credits and I just got so angry. Good to know that there is another reason to avoid Snyder's Mess.
 
Or, more to the truth, he was venerated in the geek/nerd culture for a reason he was one of them. As we have learned over the past decade, being in that culture does not necessarily mean he is a good guy. It is quite clear that he was always one of the "nice guy" nerds.



I forgot which movie I was watching when I caught his name in the credits and I just got so angry. Good to know that there is another reason to avoid Snyder's Mess.

Suicide Squad?
 
It's crazy to think back at how venerated Whedon was in the online geek/nerd culture community, even just a few years ago. I think one lesson to take away from this is how unwise it is to put these people up on a pedestal just because they happened to make a TV show or movie you enjoyed. We're all guilty of celebrity worship to some degree, it's one of the most ubiquitous sins in our society, but among many other things the MeToo movement has shown how misplaced and dangerous it can be.

The truth is that we don't know these people. And even if you do "know" them as in are acquantainces, you don't really know them. Even someone who seems nice could be a dangerous nutcase behind that. We can and should enjoy their work, but it is a mistake to start idolizing them as people.
 
The truth is that we don't know these people. And even if you do "know" them as in are acquantainces, you don't really know them. Even someone who seems nice could be a dangerous nutcase behind that. We can and should enjoy their work, but it is a mistake to start idolizing them as people.
That's why my hero is my father.

The thing that sucks is there are some truly rotten people I would never support, but unfortunately, Hollywood hides their trash.
 
That's why my hero is my father.

The thing that sucks is there are some truly rotten people I would never support, but unfortunately, Hollywood hides their trash.

I think it is the case with most businesses/industries, unfortunately. Hollywood is just more visible.
 
Carpenter came out years ago with details. So did Benson, so did Whedon's ex-wife. Why was it not a game changer then? Why are people acting as if this just brand new toda? We knew the kind of human being Joss Whedon was a long time ago, and people were still acting as if what Ray Fisher was saying didn't have an obvious baseline to start from. This would be like someone saying Singer was an issue on set, and people saying, "we need more details before we take it seriously". Of course we wouldn't. He know who Singer is. Although this exact same thing played out with Singer here so... yeah.

Not passing judgment before you see more evidence is one thing and if you did that SF, that's great. I honestly don't remember. If that is what people wanted to do, they could have totally done it. But in this thread there is a ton of speculation, plenty of which painted Fisher in a bad light and yes, mocked him. There has been a running joke about him and accusation of clout chasing. This did not end even after Momoa came out in support of him, when it was revealed that WB made up a movie to deflect attention or Whedon even got canned. As to the calls for a lack of evidence, in and of itself was a stick to beat him with. If people didn't want to hear Fisher say what he said online, they didn't have to listen to him. He made it clear he couldn't say specific things. People complained about him be "whiny" on twitter, as if anyone was forced to listen to him, and discounting the possibility that a black man in Hollywood might you know, be frustrated with the same old, same old.

I took the joking and mocking seriously, because I understand that underlying frustration Fisher might have been feeling. That we are on a board, where people constantly vent over films, television and video games, the lack of empathy for Fisher venting about a potential legitimately awful situation bothered me, and still does. Very little consideration was give to who he is, and the position he was in. All why we were living out a summer of protest based around the devaluing of black lives in America. I am not saying anyone's intention was to be awful about it, but there was very large lack of reading the room on this situation. There was even post of concern for Joss "known trash for years" Whedon being harassed online.

People didn't know all along though. Evidence on these people mounts until the dam bursts. Hollywood does a very good job suppressing stories and controlling the narrative. Whedon was a popular choice for Avengers at the time, Singer was welcomed back to X-Men. Charisma Carpenter was pretty much the exception, not the rule when it came to Whedon collaborators. Her recent statement, and the responses from colleagues were a huge shift from Tudyk supporting Whedon publicly just a few months ago. The hope is these stories will improve circumstances for people in the future, my fear is this crap is still coming out late so we'll just be unearthing some other old nightmares next week.

The lack of empathy for Fisher is a lot of things. Some the most horrid, some just found his twitter campaign kind of crass and stupid. We also live in horrendous inequality so it becomes hard for anyone living in the real world to empathize with a Hollywood actor. I've been critical of Fisher in the past for being both hyper-vocal on social media and yet being very selective with information. I still feel this way, and he really shot himself in the foot with several comments he made that made his case look weaker. That said, more power to the guy. I find it hard to picture him doing all this for the wrong reasons.
 
People didn't know all along though. Evidence on these people mounts until the dam bursts. Hollywood does a very good job suppressing stories and controlling the narrative. Whedon was a popular choice for Avengers at the time, Singer was welcomed back to X-Men. Charisma Carpenter was pretty much the exception, not the rule when it came to Whedon collaborators. Her recent statement, and the responses from colleagues were a huge shift from Tudyk supporting Whedon publicly just a few months ago. The hope is these stories will improve circumstances for people in the future, my fear is this crap is still coming out late so we'll just be unearthing some other old nightmares next week.

The lack of empathy for Fisher is a lot of things. Some the most horrid, some just found his twitter campaign kind of crass and stupid. We also live in horrendous inequality so it becomes hard for anyone living in the real world to empathize with a Hollywood actor. I've been critical of Fisher in the past for being both hyper-vocal on social media and yet being very selective with information. I still feel this way, and he really shot himself in the foot with several comments he made that made his case look weaker. That said, more power to the guy. I find it hard to picture him doing all this for the wrong reasons.

Michelle Trachtenberg just dropped that there was a rule that she and Joss were not allowed to be alone together on set. Which, given her age at the time, is very, very bad. And a lot more bad once you start thinking about it.
 
The truth is that we don't know these people. And even if you do "know" them as in are acquantainces, you don't really know them. Even someone who seems nice could be a dangerous nutcase behind that. We can and should enjoy their work, but it is a mistake to start idolizing them as people.

That is true.

I'd like to think that toxic and abusive folks like Whedon, Russell, et al represent a very small portion of prominent folks in Hollywood while the vast majority (everyone else) is professional and/or courteous. When toxic folks gain money and power, it gets to their heads and makes them WORSE.
 
Whedon's ex-wife said that Joss admitted the power went to his head.

When people of weaker character get unchecked power they tend to abuse it.

Some of the vitriol I saw against Fisher was really ugly. Some folks really do hero worship these people in the entertainment industry that they don't even know. There is some Annie Wilkes from Misery/Eminem's Stan level of unhealthy emotional attachment to some people in Hollywood.

I understand enjoying someone's work or talent but keep in perspective that they are still human beings with flaws and not infallible unquestionable gods.
 
I understand enjoying someone's work or talent but keep in perspective that they are still human beings with flaws and not infallible unquestionable gods.

Most of the actors I've talked to are remarkably grounded. Even after they've "made it" (or left the business), they know the industry they choose to work in is grueling and that future success is NEVER guaranteed.

And a toxic work environment where higher-ups have their favorites (and alienate the rest) isn't exclusive to a big show like "Buffy". Even a kid's show like Power Rangers has had its moments.

I remember being shocked when David Yost said that he was essentially bullied off "Power Rangers Zeo" from crew members because he was gay (and hadn't come out yet). And several cast members in "Power Rangers Turbo" didn't find out they were leaving the show until they saw a casting call in the paper looking for new cast members.
 
Most of the actors I've talked to are remarkably grounded. Even after they've "made it" (or left the business), they know the industry they choose to work in is grueling and that future success is NEVER guaranteed.

And a toxic work environment where higher-ups have their favorites (and alienate the rest) isn't exclusive to a big show like "Buffy". Even a kid's show like Power Rangers has had its moments.

I remember being shocked when David Yost said that he was essentially bullied off "Power Rangers Zeo" from crew members because he was gay (and hadn't come out yet). And several cast members in "Power Rangers Turbo" didn't find out they were leaving the show until they saw a casting call in the paper looking for new cast members.
Actors and showrunners are human beings like us all. There are the good ones, the bad ones, and all levels in between. It does hurt a bit when you realize one you truly looked up to or made something you adore isn't what you hoped, but I guess it is a decent life lesson.
 
I don't know why you guys want Captain Marvel to loose her power to Rogue, leave my girl alone. Marvel better not mess with her powers.

She don't gotta lose all her powers... just give up some of that extra strength and flight. She can always go back to the Tesseract and recharge lol.
 
I don't know why you guys want Captain Marvel to loose her power to Rogue, leave my girl alone. Marvel better not mess with her powers.
Why wouldn't I? I think if superheroes aren't suffering personal emotional turmoil and/or pain and trauma, what's really the point?

I want her to suffer.
I want Peter Parker to suffer.
I want Steve Rogers to suffer.
I want Tony Stark to suffer.
I want Thor to suffer.
etc.

I think Endgame and the MCU Spider-Man movies didn't have nearly enough of dealing, to me, with the superhero characters personal emotional trauma, pain and suffering. I see nothing wrong with Carol Danvers losing her powers. She's a superhero. Rogue taking them causes emotional trauma for them both. I see not doing that as coddling the characters and not doing what's can help them being stronger characterization wise.
 
I think Captain Marvel could benefit from being taken down a notch in power. Her taking a headbutt from Thanos, in the Endgame climax no less, without even flinching is one of the dumbest things that has happened in the MCU. It's cool to see powerful heroes but there must always be threats that can hurt them and if not even Thanos or a Kree fleet poses any problems there is just too much disconnect to the rest of the MCU. It undercut all the previous struggle against Thanos without any build up of its own.

We can see how much Thor has lost, or Wanda, and their characters are better for it. It certainly hasn't made them not look powerful either. But we'll see what they do with Carol on the future. She hasn't had many appearances yet so that could be why I don't find her as interesting as a character yet, especially as she was in Endgame.
 
Why wouldn't I? I think if superheroes aren't suffering personal emotional turmoil and/or pain and trauma, what's really the point?

I want her to suffer.
I want Peter Parker to suffer.
I want Steve Rogers to suffer.
I want Tony Stark to suffer.
I want Thor to suffer.
etc.

I think Endgame and the MCU Spider-Man movies didn't have nearly enough of dealing, to me, with the superhero characters personal emotional trauma, pain and suffering. I see nothing wrong with Carol Danvers losing her powers. She's a superhero. Rogue taking them causes emotional trauma for them both. I see not doing that as coddling the characters and not doing what's can help them being stronger characterization wise.

You say this about the character who the comics have done some of the egregious **** to. You will understand that people may not want the character they love from the first movie to go through that ****. And why is Carol's power level a problem? Should Superman be powered down because he is too powerful?

Lets ignore how much the Rogue situation feels like a rape analogy for now. How do you take the first movie, and think the most obvious move for the second movie is to somehow steal her powers? I understand not everyone loved the movie like I did, but come on, the message of that movie is quite clear and why it resonated with audiences. And you want to undo that? And lets be honest here, the desire for this is not for Carol's story. It is because you want a comic accurate Rogue.

And having been rewatching X-men Evolution has shown me just how unnecessary the Rogue/Carol thing is. Rogue with just her main power is far more interesting and creative.
 
Why wouldn't I? I think if superheroes aren't suffering personal emotional turmoil and/or pain and trauma, what's really the point?

I want her to suffer.
I want Peter Parker to suffer.
I want Steve Rogers to suffer.
I want Tony Stark to suffer.
I want Thor to suffer.
etc.

I think Endgame and the MCU Spider-Man movies didn't have nearly enough of dealing, to me, with the superhero characters personal emotional trauma, pain and suffering. I see nothing wrong with Carol Danvers losing her powers. She's a superhero. Rogue taking them causes emotional trauma for them both. I see not doing that as coddling the characters and not doing what's can help them being stronger characterization wise.

I'm fine with it if it is the storyline for a Captain Marvel film to provide drama and an obstacle for Carol to overcome. The problem is that I often see this proposed by certain "fans" as a way to write Carol out of the MCU completely as there is a small number of very vocal people that have an irrational hatred of her. That's what we don't want, and it won't happen because Captain Marvel overall is superpopular right now outside of that comic book reader/fans still stuck in the 90s bubble.
 
Considering the toxicity from large portions of the internet when it came to Captain Marvel and Brie Larson herself, it's hard not to side eye the idea that the first thing some seem to thinks needs to be done to the MCU's Superman, is to nerf her for whatever reason. She found herself at the end of the last film. She hasn't even had a chance to be her awesome self in all her glory for more then one act.
 
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I didn't think of that, but yeah, I can see your point.

Its one of those things that can easily be rewritten to avoid. But the story everyone wants to reference is pretty much a rape story. I understand that people want a Rogue with super strength and flight. But, I think those powers are unnecessary to the character. X-men Evolution was able to use her to great effect, and she never permanently stole another's powers.

And in then end, follow upping a story about a woman who was gaslit to keep her from fully realizing her own power with a story about taking away said power just feels gross.
 
I still can't believe they have spent all his money on the Snyder Cut, and they are going to release it in 4:3. :lmao:
 
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