The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - Part 156

[Filmfreak]

From my experience general audience seems to like and care more for The Dark Knight Trilogy, while more hardcore fans and younger generation is more attached to The Batman. It certainly hasn't had the same effect in pop culture yet, though.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I've seen a few theories on why. The one I agree with is that a lot of it was stuff we'd seen before in other Batman movies. One element I see it get praised for in terms of doing something different is showing more of Batman's detective side. Which it did and it was cool and all.

To be blunt, I don't think the film did that part well.

It felt like Alfred did far more solving the actual riddles and ciphers.

Penguin, Gordon, and Martinez also helped when it should've been Batman.

For all the hype of detective Batman being in the film, I don't feel it delivered on that front because Batman himself either didn't do much or got a lot wrong.

But this is another topic, I guess.

In the end, I think Bale catches some unfair flack for not being as detective-like compared to Pattinson whereas I feel it's kind of a draw.

And it wouldn't be an issue if people didn't try to compare.

 

[The Joker]

To be blunt, I don't think the film did that part well.

It felt like Alfred did far more solving the actual riddles and ciphers.

Penguin, Gordon, and Martinez also helped when it should've been Batman.

For all the hype of detective Batman being in the film, I don't feel it delivered on that front because Batman himself either didn't do much or got a lot wrong.

But this is another topic, I guess.

In the end, I think Bale catches some unfair flack for not being as detective-like compared to Pattinson whereas I feel it's kind of a draw.

And it wouldn't be an issue if people didn't try to compare.

That's asking for the impossible. Especially when it comes to TDK. Not just with Batman flicks. Every time a half way decent CBM comes along its pitted in a versus poll against TDK.

Some people are just itching to see it knocked off its throne. 14 years later it still has not happened despite a lot of stiff competition since.

 

[The Batman]

It's just interesting to me how the Batman films where Batman is undeniably the highlight of the film (MOTP, BB, TB) are the ones that often end up being the lesser known or talked about films.

Meanwhile, the Batman flicks that manage to capture a large amount of hype (B89, BR, BF, TDK, TDKR) are always the ones where the villain is usually regarded as the highlight.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Because the Batman films that focus more on Batman tend to be slower burns.

The ones that focus more on the villains or a balance tend to be blockbuster style sequels more so than character driven.

 

[Gothamsknight]

This is going to ruffle some feathers if I say it on The Batman board, but I seriously feel like since the new film's release, I've seen Bale's Batman films discussed far more and seen it make headlines much more often since March than the new film.

Yup. I think it's a combination of factors, but the "detective aspect" isn't enough to make this new iteration feel different than what came before. I gave the movie the benefit of the doubt when it comes to it having it's own feel and identity, but unfortunately I don't feel it did enough to carve its own path. Not yet, anyway.

A lot of the younger side of Batman fandom today don't really understand how massive TDK trilogy was during the late 2000s. Just like with Harry Potter and other franchises at the time. And you can't really fault them for it either, but my point is that when you get an audience to love and care for an interpretation of a character and his world as much as Nolan did, it does make it difficult to achieve something thats good enough to get people to care enough to be invested in the long run. After Burton, and especially after Nolan and the popularity of both versions, achieving that a 3rd time is extremely difficult. I appreciate Matt Reeves passion and love for Batman, and it's a well made movie, but I have zero desire to revisit it in the near future. Meanwhile, I rewatched TDK as recently as March, and both BB and TDKR within the last month. It's a testament to rewatchability factors and how much it resonates. The Batman is a 3 hour movie and it's a slow burn, which I do think is another factor that plays a part and maybe came across as pretentious for some people. I don't agree with that, but I also think the 3 hour run time wasn't needed.

I also feel like those who were really hyped for The Batman, not necessarily on here, but other places REALLY wanted The Batman to praised as much as TDK. It wasn't though, and that's okay. As @The Joker said, thats impossible. What matters to me is that there should be a reason why I should be invested in the long run for another trilogy and at the moment I need more than what I got in The Batman for that to be case.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Yup. I think it's a combination of factors, but the "detective aspect" isn't enough to make this new iteration feel different than what came before.

I gave the movie the benefit of the doubt when it comes to it having it's own feel and identity, but unfortunately I don't feel it did enough to carve its own path. Not yet, anyway.

I 100% agree that Reeves didn't make his iteration different enough.

The thing is that the comics, from Denny O'Neil, to Frank Miller, to Jim Lee - all manage to feel different despite the common threads and similar tones.

I don't think Reeves, for all of his hard work and clear talent, managed to achieve that.

If he'd gone full out, comics-accurate sci-fi Gotham that could have Man-Bat, Killer Croc, a real immortal Ra's Al Ghul and embraced the fantastical elements whilst keeping the grit, atmosphere and tone that he achieved - that would've been plenty of differentiate himself with.

Because we've never seen a fantastical Batman series on screen that embraced the fantastical elements in a serious and gritty manner since...ever? Yes, Snyder's Batman existed in that world - but never in a solo film. Even Burton's versions most 'fantastical' was a chemical bath and a deformed child.

If Reeves went the fantastical, gothic route with a serious tone - it would've been fresh for audiences nowadays.

I appreciate Matt Reeves passion and love for Batman, and it's a well made movie, but I have zero desire to revisit it in the near future.

Same. I bought the 4k/Blu-Ray set - but I've yet to watch it or even want to. I quite liked the film - but what does that say when I haven't even thought about popping it in once since I purchased it?

I did see the film 6 times in the theater - but two of those times were taking friends who hadn't seen it and another two were when I was trying to figure out my feelings on it.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

The Batman is a 3 hour movie and it's a slow burn, which I do think is another factor that plays a part and maybe came across as pretentious for some people. I don't agree with that.

I 100% think Batman has achieved 'pretentious' for a lot of people.

Many Batman fans come off as super insecure and have to constantly prove that Batman is a "seeeewious charwacter for seeeewious peeple!"

Like there's this insecurity Batman fans have that they have to constantly prove how dark and gritty he is.

And that's kind of how Snyder's Batman and even Reeves' Batman come off to me, sometimes - not just the portrayals themselves but their fans.

Which is why I think Batman parodies are so fun for people - the LEGO Batman film touched on the pretentiousness of the character's 'dark' style and 'super seeeewious all the times!!!!!' nature quite well.

 

[HarveyHarris]

I've seen more discourse about what a (guaranteed never to happen) 4th Bale Batman film would be like than discourse about the actual Pattinson Batman sequel that's confirmed.

I didn't really expect this.

Eh tbf that was the case for BB before the TDK hypetrain came along as far as I can remember, the third fabled Burton film has been the hot topic for decades.
I do think the Snyder BvS experience, fair or not, has knocked the public perception of the character back a few steps, mixed in with the fact that The Batman didn't reinvent the wheel and you get this apathy.
The Batman was the first time I'd really heard a complaint about "yet another Bat movie?".

 

[BatLobster]

I think The Batman, while it definitely excels at the mood-heavy, slow burn, "vibe movie" thing-- it does kind of lack that show-stopping, "holy sh**" factor, which I think is a big part of what makes it a tough comparison. If you think of the moments in the film that pop out-- Batman's intro sequence, the Batmobile chase, Batman escaping GCPD, the Colson bomb sequence...they're all great moments, but they also do play like variations on beats that we've seen before that were also done well in those previous versions. And it's not to say that those moments aren't handled really well in The Batman. But it does create more of a feeling of the movie feeling perhaps a little too much like a greatest hits collection which may be why it's harder for it to leave as big of a mark as some of its predecessors.

The thing about the Nolan films, say what you will about them, but TDK and TDKR delivered those "Holy sh**, I cannot believe what I just saw" moments in spades. And not as in only a shock value way, but just moments that are legitimately so breathtaking and executed so brilliantly that they are immediately etched into your brain forever.

 

[Nardz937]

I haven't revisited any of the Nolan trilogy since seeing The Batman, but I remember seeing TDK in the theater and being blown away. I had never seen a CBM like it, as much as I did like The Batman it didn't blow me away at all.

And I think what will really separate the two for me are their third-acts, and The Dark Knight's third-act is so much stronger than The Batman's

 

[Gothamsknight]

I think The Batman, while it definitely excels at the mood-heavy, slow burn, "vibe movie" thing-- it does kind of lack that show-stopping, "holy sh**" factor, which I think is a big part of what makes it a tough comparison. If you think of the moments in the film that pop out-- Batman's intro sequence, the Batmobile chase, Batman escaping GCPD, the Colson bomb sequence...they're all great moments, but they also do play like variations on beats that we've seen before that were also done well in those previous versions. And it's not to say that those moments aren't handled really well in The Batman. But it does create more of a feeling of the movie feeling perhaps a little too much like a greatest hits collection which may be why it's harder for it to leave as big of a mark as some of its predecessors.

The thing about the Nolan films, say what you will about them, but TDK and TDKR delivered those "Holy sh**, I cannot believe what I just saw" moments in spades. And not as in only a shock value way, but just moments that are legitimately so breathtaking and executed so brilliantly that they are immediately etched into your brain forever.

And that's another thing that kinda annoys me too honestly. Like, there was all this talk of "we've never seen this before" but during interviews everybody kept saying it's grounded like Year One and stuff. Batman Begins took the Year One approach as well, and really the only thing this film did that was all that different was make Bruce Wayne emo and gave it a grunge edge.

 

[Brother Jack]

If he'd gone full out, comics-accurate sci-fi Gotham that could have Man-Bat, Killer Croc, a real immortal Ra's Al Ghul and embraced the fantastical elements whilst keeping the grit, atmosphere and tone that he achieved - that would've been plenty of differentiate himself with.

Because we've never seen a fantastical Batman series on screen that embraced the fantastical elements in a serious and gritty manner since...ever? Yes, Snyder's Batman existed in that world - but never in a solo film. Even Burton's versions most 'fantastical' was a chemical bath and a deformed child.

If Reeves went the fantastical, gothic route with a serious tone - it would've been fresh for audiences nowadays.

I respect that Reeves is approaching it in the best way he knows how, but yeah he didn't do himself any favors by making another even grittier and more "realistic" take. He's inviting even more comparisons to Nolan than he would've had otherwise which I think has steepened the hill he has had to climb to win the general audience over. He does make a few key choices to make his version unique and I think there's a lot to be said that the method of telling a story matters more than the text of the story itself, and I think we can all agree that it is an exquisitely well-crafted piece of work. But it is so rote narratively and aesthetically that it does feel held back.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

I've said it before - but if you're a rock/music fan you'll understand what I mean.

The Batman is the Greta Van Fleet of Batman films, in practice.

(Though, I really do like the film)

 

[OnLeatherWings]

So...
Netflix removed the first two Nolan films before putting the third on?

What.

 

[The Joker]

I guess all three together was too much greatness for Netflix to handle

 

[Brother Jack]

I've said it before - but if you're a rock/music fan you'll understand what I mean.

The Batman is the Greta Van Fleet of Batman films, in practice.

(Though, I really do like the film)

That's a little harsh.

 

[The Batman]

Eh tbf that was the case for BB before the TDK hypetrain came along as far as I can remember, the third fabled Burton film has been the hot topic for decades.

I think people are forgetting that in general, BB wasn't this massive cultural event when it first came out. Similar to The Batman, it was liked well enough and made enough money to be called a hit, but it wasn't the attention grabbing success the first three Burton/Schumacher films were. Even now, I don't think the general audience gives BB the same kind of attention they give the next to films in the trilogy.

All this to say...sure, Reeves hasn't massively caught on with this first attempt, but then again, neither did Nolan.

 

[BatLobster]

I think people are forgetting that in general, BB wasn't this massive cultural event when it first came out. Similar to The Batman, it was liked well enough and made enough money to be called a hit, but it wasn't the attention grabbing success the first three Burton/Schumacher films were. Even now, I don't think the general audience gives BB the same kind of attention they give the next to films in the trilogy.

All this to say...sure, Reeves hasn't massively caught on with this first attempt, but then again, neither did Nolan.

I definitely am allowing for this possibility. It could happen. The only thing I'd say is, I feel like Chris Nolan became "the" Chris Nolan we all know today when he stepped up to the plate with TDK. It felt kind of like a tectonic shift both for his career and movies in general.

Reeves, I feel, is kind of more established as a large scale filmmaker at this point with two Apes films and a Batman film under his belt. I also think he took a much bigger swing on his first attempt than BB was. So at the same time, I have also have a seed of skepticism that he is going to be able to make a film that feels like it's something completely different from TB and really catches fire in that sort of way. Especially in the super saturated landscape we're in now.

Would love to be proven wrong though.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Right place right time makes a lot of difference

 

[Blade Hoarder]

True. We are in the steaming era now. So I keep wondering how these spin-offs will affect The Batman and its follow ups. Will they enhance the films or hurt and dilute them. That’s one of the key things separating this universe from the Nolan movies. At least for now.

 

[OnLeatherWings]

Reeves hasn't massively caught on with this first attempt, but then again, neither did Nolan.

The difference for me is that Reeves' is more flawed than Nolan's first attempt. And more derivative.

In this day and age, audiences need something fresher and I don't know if Reeves' style of Batman has potential to evolve into something more crowd-pleasing, whereas Nolan left himself more open to that.

 

[BMW 224]

The difference for me is that Reeves' is more flawed than Nolan's first attempt. And more derivative.

In this day and age, audiences need something fresher and I don't know if Reeves' style of Batman has potential to evolve into something more crowd-pleasing, whereas Nolan left himself more open to that.

If we're talking comparing The Batman to the Dark Knight Dark Knight Rises I agree.

But Begins ?

I mean this as no slight against Begins I love this film dearly and I consider it the best superhero origin story film of all time.

I think The Batman is certainly less flawed than Begins and is overall better movie and Batman movie.

Batman Begins pays homages to past Batman takes the animated series comics and Burton film's.


The Batman does the same thing but swaps the Burton films out for the Nolan films.

I don't see either as being derivative.

Batman Begins was modest success but was completely fresh compared to the comic book movies at the time and had more in common with movie outside the genre.

I
The Batman is a modest success but is completely fresh compared to comic book movies right now MCU DCEU Sony etc and has more in common with movies outside the genre.


If we're strictly comparing The Batman to Begins (which I think makes more sense as the both the first in there respective triolgy/universe/ and not Dark Knight and Rises I think The Batman suprassed Begins overall.

Which is no easy feat as even Begins is one the best comic book movies in the genre.

I also take issue with the idea that Nolan's style of Batman left himself "more open" to evolve into something more crowd pleasing and Reeves didn't.

At the time Begins was seen as really dark noir and adult for a mainstream comic book film which is why many were surprised that Dark Knight blew up as it did.

We don't know what's in store for The Batman 2 yet so I think it's far to early for that judgment.

 

[BoredGuy]

The Batman is a modest success but is completely fresh compared to comic book movies right now MCU DCEU Sony etc and has more in common with movies outside the genre.

Ehh, is it though?
It didn't have any humor, so that's a little different I guess, and they paid lip service to the detective aspect

but completely fresh is a bit of an overstatement, there have been plenty of dark very serious comic movies (and series) over the past decade

BB definitely felt more "new and different" when it was released compared to TB, imo

 

[BatLobster]

I think a fundamental difference between the two approaches, if you were to boil them down to fundamental questions is...

Nolan asked, can I make a movie that honors the source material while treating the genre seriously, and also make the most thrilling and entertaining experience possible for a wide audience?

With Reeves, it seems to be, can I make the truest and most psychological depiction and examination of Batman and Gotham within a film noir context?

I think both achieved their goals, but it's not entirely surprising that at the moment, the Nolan films may have a higher ceiling in terms of their popularity.

Again, totally open to revising this when I see what Reeves cooks up for his sequel(s). But it just feels like a more fully formed take, whereas I think Begins was a bit more like planting a seed that blossomed with the two sequels. It was all about laying a foundation and then seeing how the consequences of Batman's mission played out. At the time, it wasn't even clear it Nolan would do sequels. It very easily could've been other filmmakers coming in to build off of that in the early stages. Obviously, I'm glad that didn't happen.

With Reeves, it's a different landscape. He came into right from the start with the intention of trying to live up to/compete with TDK, a sprawling 3 hour plot, ideas for prequels, spin-offs, etc. As a result, I think we get a much more fully formed take, which may be harder to deviate from. I think if consistency is the no. 1 thing you care about, this is great news. But if you want to see a series that has a lot of room to grow and develop in potentially unexpected ways, I'm not sure. We'll see.