Infinity War Captain America|Steve Rogers - Chris Evans

[BullMcGiveny]

Once again like I asked you before, if it is not his film, then who's is it? Please break it down for me in detail.

It is a narrow ensemble.

I don't subscribe to your rigid, technical system. I weigh characters by who changes the most, who gets the emotional beats, etc. I judge it by who does the story serve most, rather than who serves it.

Pierce and Fury have their shared arc, BW has her own. These arcs exist for their own sake, not for Steve's. They have a shared theme of the cost of compromise, which Steve doesn't really share.

BW starts out as a satisfied enforcer for Fury, confronts the real meaning of her service of SHIELD, and ends up being the one to release the files (including her own) to the internet, which the movie portrays as a big heroic moment for her. Steve decided SHIELD needed to go, but it was just a setup for BW to be the one to do it.

Fury similarly has an arc of doing increasingly underhanded things in the name of the greater good, until he realizes where it lead, and similarly takes part in the dismantling of shield.

Steve starts with an arc of his own, about the murkiness of the modern world, but then it evaporates. He finds out that HYDRA, an old familiar unambiguous enemy is behind most of the murkiness. His arc evaporates. He doesn't grow, he regresses by falling into old familiar patterns.

From then, he supports Fury and BW's arcs, and has emotional beats from finding out Bucky is alive, which is all told a fairly minor development.

I know people like to talk about how heroic Cap is for refusing to kill Bucky, but it really isn't.

Fury and BW get solid arcs. Cap is the lynchpin that maybe holds it together, or the POV, but ultimately he gets something much weaker than others. The story isn't all that geared to serve him, so I don't see it as his story.

That is why this is not an Avengers movie and it is a Cap one. Avengers films are designed so everyone is more or less of equal importance (though even there it varies...but it has no 1 central main character is the point).

'Avengers are equal, except some Avengers are more equal than others' is what you're saying.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It is a narrow ensemble.

I don't subscribe to your rigid, technical system. I weigh characters by who changes the most, who gets the emotional beats, etc. I judge it by who does the story serve most, rather than who serves it.

Pierce and Fury have their shared arc, BW has her own. These arcs exist for their own sake, not for Steve's. They have a shared theme of the cost of compromise, which Steve doesn't really share.

BW starts out as a satisfied enforcer for Fury, confronts the real meaning of her service of SHIELD, and ends up being the one to release the files (including her own) to the internet, which the movie portrays as a big heroic moment for her. Steve decided SHIELD needed to go, but it was just a setup for BW to be the one to do it.

Fury similarly has an arc of doing increasingly underhanded things in the name of the greater good, until he realizes where it lead, and similarly takes part in the dismantling of shield.

Steve starts with an arc of his own, about the murkiness of the modern world, but then it evaporates. He finds out that HYDRA, an old familiar unambiguous enemy is behind most of the murkiness. His arc evaporates. He doesn't grow, he regresses by falling into old familiar patterns.

From then, he supports Fury and BW's arcs, and has emotional beats from finding out Bucky is alive, which is all told a fairly minor development.

I know people like to talk about how heroic Cap is for refusing to kill Bucky, but it really isn't.

Fury and BW get solid arcs. Cap is the lynchpin that maybe holds it together, or the POV, but ultimately he gets something much weaker than others. The story isn't all that geared to serve him, so I don't see it as his story.

How is Steve serving their arcs? They're clearly serving Steve's. "Looks like you're giving the orders now, Captain." Aka, I am handing you the reigns of this fight. Widow is following Steve around to find out what happened to Fury, but Steve is changing her and in turn she is changing the way he sees the world and reacts to situations (look at the mall scene). They're 100% serving Steve's arc.

'Avengers are equal, except some Avengers are more equal than others' is what you're saying.

Even in an Avengers film, Iron Man or Cap gets more to do than Thor. It's never going to be perfect. But, Thor doesn't spend AoU's finale in a jail cell. He has a major role in the climax and how the story ends. The Avengers in CW do not. That is a monumental difference.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Quite honestly at this point Bull, no point in replying to my last post. I'm basically done with this conversation, LOL! Suffice to say I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of both Cap sequels. We're arguing in circles at this point and it isn't going anywhere.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Black Widow and Cap service eachother's stories. He learns to trust her throughout the film, straight after the mall scene - their conversation in the car. It's a huge turn in their friendship.

But yeah, I'm with SF.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

How is Steve serving their arcs? They're clearly serving Steve's. "Looks like you're giving the orders now, Captain." Aka, I am handing you the reigns of this fight. Widow is following Steve around to find out what happened to Fury, but Steve is changing her and in turn she is changing the way he sees the world and reacts to situations (look at the mall scene). They're 100% serving Steve's arc.

Because they're the ones doing things they previously would not do. They're the ones changing.

Steve didn't change one bit.

 

[BullMcGiveny]

Quite honestly at this point Bull, no point in replying to my last post. I'm basically done with this conversation, LOL! Suffice to say I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of both Cap sequels. We're arguing in circles at this point and it isn't going anywhere.

We've actually never discussed character arcs until now since you were fixated with the technicalities of screenwriting, but okay.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Edit: Poster changed post so I must do the same.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Black Widow and Cap service eachother's stories. He learns to trust her throughout the film, straight after the mall scene - their conversation in the car. It's a huge turn in their friendship.

But yeah, I'm with SF.

Agreed. Their interactions are one of my favorite things about TWS. I do wish they got more to do in IW, personally. I know they say Cap will get more to do, but I am hoping Cap ends up like what Thor was in IW come A4.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

Me too, I'm optimistic.

 

[Arachnerd]

Oh my god, please tell me this argument is over.

 

[Bim]

Oh my god, please tell me this argument is over.

I gotta say, i love the scene in Wakanda when they lower the defense shield and Black Panther and Steve just run like the devil is chasing them.

I'm sure we'll see Cap having a bigger part in the next movie. I'm just scared of whom they'll kill, cause i just have a bad feeling that we might see one or two of the original avengers die

 

[Capitan America]

do they ever explain how Red Skull knows of Odin and how he knew of the stones?

It was done mostly in a comic book: Captain America: First Vengeance. Skull, same as Hitler, loves Richard Wagner music, who was into norse mythology.

 

[The Caped Knight]

http://ew.com/movies/2018/07/04/chris-evans-captain-america-100th-birthday-july-4th/
Happy 100th birthday MCU CAP!

 

[rashad]

This would've pissed me off.

Captain America was originally supposed to enter Avengers: Infinity War late in the movie with a scene-stealing Wakanda entrance that eventually went to Thor, but directors Anthony and Joe Russo brought the star-spangled Avenger in earlier because no one at Marvel Studios liked Cap’s late entrance.

“Everybody at Marvel, I think other than Joe and I, they were mad at us because we were bringing him in the movie so late [laughs],” Anthony Russo told ET. “We thought it was the right spot to do it, but after a while we kind of gave into everybody’s, ‘We need more Cap!’”

Thor makes his dramatic return to Earth in the midst of the Wakanda-set battle between Earth’s mightiest heroes and the Wakandan army against Thanos’ Black Order and his legion of vicious foot soldiers, the Outriders, blasting into the fray accompanied by newfound allies Groot and Rocket Raccoon of the Guardians of the Galaxy.

Earlier on in the process, Cap would have resurfaced in a similar manner: “He had Thor’s heroic entrance in the Wakanda battle. That was originally Cap,” Joe Russo added.

“Our thinking was that he was on the run, nobody could find him, and so we thought that it would be this really compelling way to use the character — especially because we were trying to thin the ranks out so we could track everyone — and then we realized we had a really good spot to bring him in earlier in Scotland, to save Vision and Wanda. And so we started moving around heroic moments for characters.”

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/08...kanda-entrance-captain-america-later-earlier/

 

[marcvader]

Yeah that would’ve sucked but I guess that confirms his role in the next one is big.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

They definitely went with the better choice. Thor showing up makes more sense since he's the furthest away at the start of the film and his entrance to Wakanda is now one of his most iconic scenes in the MCU now.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

You know, it wasn't that long ago that some of us were *****ing about the impracticality of Cap holding Thanos at bay, even for the briefest of seconds, but I have to say that ended up being one of my favorite scenes from the entire movie. That WTF look on Thanos's face at the sight of this not-so-mere mortal doing the downright impossible was practically worth the price of admission alone!

 

[Brian Braddock]

Isn't that how most things go on the Hype - *****ing without being privvy to full details and/or context? I've lost count of the amount of times posters over the years have gone overboard reacting to a snippet of info/footage/set pic only to then rave about it when seeing the finished version.

 

[shadowboxxx]

IW needed alot more Cap as it is.

Cant believe the Russos wanted to bench him until the end.

 

[Arachnerd]

He'll have a much bigger role in Avengers 4, so no worries there.

 

[Spider-Fan]

This does kind of make sense of why Thor coming to Wakanda felt off to me. Cause clearly, Thor wants Thanos. The opening clearly shows him hear that he is meeting the other Black Order guys on Titan. Yet he goes to Earth? No less exactly where a conflict he was unaware of was happening? It felt like a slight disconnect within the plot. Now I see how that idea evolved, lol.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Isn't that how most things go on the Hype - *****ing without being privvy to full details and/or context? I've lost count of the amount of times posters over the years have gone overboard reacting to a snippet of info/footage/set pic only to then rave about it when seeing the finished version.

This is true.

 

[Kev4000]

I'm glad they introduced Steve in Scotland.
I dont see a huge plothole with Thor, because it is known that Thanos collect all the Stones and one of them is on earth by his Friends. So Thor can be sure he will Show up there and can help his Friends too.

 

[kguillou]

I saw a twitter post about how supposedly in the commentary the Russos confirmed that Cap and Widow were seeing each other? And that is why Falcon said "well this is awkward," when her and Bruce were reunited? Is this true?

 

[HammerDown]

They definitely went with the better choice. Thor showing up makes more sense since he's the furthest away at the start of the film and his entrance to Wakanda is now one of his most iconic scenes in the MCU now.

Agreed 100%. Also the built up to that entrance was near perfect with the forging of Stormbreaker and the state Thor was left in right before he appears triumphantly in Wakanda. Also having Rocket on his shoulder and Groot next to him really hammered the point home of how cool that entrance really was... The first time we see 2 of the favorite guardians on Earth is a big bonus.