Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah, I feel like the problem here is that it isn’t exactly clear what Joss is being accused of. So if he comes out and says, “The allegations by Ray Fisher are false,” it doesn’t exactly ring true because no one knows exactly what Ray is saying he did. It’s like when a news article hits that details Trump’s latest crimes and his cronies come out and defend him, saying stuff like, “I didn’t read the article and I know nothing about these allegations, but they are completely false.” Like, huh? You say you don’t even know what is alleged but you can also say with 100% certainly that it’s bogus? Probably best if Whedon just waits and sees what Ray says he did.

 

[flickchick85]

But see thats the other thing im trying to figure out. Why now? The Snyder cut’s being released and now people will see all of Ray’s lost footage and performances that hes proud of. He’s once again the “heart” of Justice League. Justice has been done. The fans won an impossible fight. Everyones happy so why put a dark cloud over this celebration by dwelling on the past unless something really bad did happen?

It could be that he waited 'til now because he didn't want to upset Johns, Berg, etc. for fear of sabotaging the Snyder Cut's chances of happening. Now that AT&T has basically taken it out of their hands, maybe he thought it was safe.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It could be that he waited 'til now because he didn't want to upset Johns, Berg, etc. for fear of sabotaging the Snyder Cut's chances of happening. Now that AT&T has basically taken it out of their hands, maybe he thought it was safe.

It's honestly a perfect storm situation. We have seen one of the biggest shifts in recent times when it comes to the view on black Americans and what they have been trying to tell the rest of the country for 250 years, while as you pointed out, they are definitely now finishing the just as bad, just different cut of the film. So no worries there.

The way this stuff is coming out, it feels like years upon years of frustration being directed at one particular incident that really bothered Fisher. Considering we just lived through some of the big protest in US history during a pandemic trying to explain such feelings, it would probably be best if more people listened instead of playing PI.

 

[Bayne]

It's honestly a perfect storm situation. We have seen one of the biggest shifts in recent times when it comes to the view on black Americans and what they have been trying to tell the rest of the country for 250 years, while as you pointed out, they are definitely now finishing the just as bad, just different cut of the film. So no worries there.

The way this stuff is coming out, it feels like years upon years of frustration being directed at one particular incident that really bothered Fisher. Considering we just lived through some of the big protest in US history during a pandemic trying to explain such feelings, it would probably be best if more people listened instead of playing PI.

I don't see anyone here not listening, though. Listening can only take you so far if the person you're listening to refuses to say anything concrete.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't see anyone here not listening, though. Listening can only take you so far if the person you're listening to refuses to say anything concrete.

If the issue is that Fisher hasn't given people enough, then well what is there to do other then wait? Fisher's a dude just like any other dude, maybe he's just venting. Maybe he feels secure enough to do somethings and not others. Maybe he can only go so far. But if there is nothing to discuss,what's the discussion? It feels like it turns into a situation where people are demanding something, and if the person doesn't provide it they are branded a liar. And well, that doesn't feel like listening imo. Because it becomes a situation where people are trying to infer to get the outcome they are looking for.

Also this isn't a question of reputation. We already know Whedon is a pretty crappy person. His ex-wife laid it all out there for people to see, and yet he still has the weird geek worship. So it isn't like Joss Whedon's reputation is even an issue here.

 

[Bayne]

If the issue is that Fisher hasn't given people enough, then well what is there to do other then wait? Fisher's a dude just like any other dude, maybe he's just venting. Maybe he feels secure enough to do somethings and not others. Maybe he can only go so far. But if there is nothing to discuss,what's the discussion? It feels like it turns into a situation where people are demanding something, and if the person doesn't provide it they are branded a liar. And well, that doesn't feel like listening imo. Because it becomes a situation where people are trying to infer to get the outcome they are looking for.

Also this isn't a question of reputation. We already know Whedon is a pretty crappy person. His ex-wife laid it all out there for people to see, and yet he still has the weird geek worship. So it isn't like Joss Whedon's reputation is even an issue here.

People talk about hot air all the time. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. As long as Fisher keeps posting, people will keep talking about it. I also don't see anyone here really trying to defend Whedon's reputation at all, let alone worshipping the man.

Everyone's been willing to listen since this started. Everyone has listened, but like you yourself acknowledge, there's really nothing that's been said that we can *do* anything with. Now, maybe he just needs to vent. Maybe it's never been supposed to be anything we can do anything about. In that case it really has nothing to do with any of us and this whole discussion never mattered and never will, for good or bad.

But he sure makes it sound like he wants us (people in general) on his side. If that's his goal, then he has to say something at some point. People can only listen to the same vague message on repeat for so long before everyone starts tuning out.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

People talk about hot air all the time. Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. As long as Fisher keeps posting, people will keep talking about it. I also don't see anyone here really trying to defend Whedon's reputation at all, let alone worshipping the man.

Everyone's been willing to listen since this started. Everyone has listened, but like you yourself acknowledge, there's really nothing that's been said that we can *do* anything with. Now, maybe he just needs to vent. Maybe it's never been supposed to be anything we can do anything about. In that case it really has nothing to do with any of us and this whole discussion never mattered and never will, for good or bad.

But he sure makes it sound like he wants us (people in general) on his side. If that's his goal, then he has to say something at some point. People can only listen to the same vague message on repeat for so long before everyone starts tuning out.

People can have whatever discussion they want here as long as it falls inside the parameters of the thread. Discuss it to everyone's satisfaction. Heck, I am now discussing this again, and there apparently isn't anything new to even go on. But what exactly is the pursuit here? Truth? There feels like too much speculation on intent or reasoning for that to be the case. All the talk of what little Fisher has said and led to some crazy extrapolation of him as a person and that feels not great imo.

Also, not "everyone" has been willing to listen. Maybe on the collective Hype, maybe? I am no longer the adventurous ranger I use to be, so I don't venture past the wall all that often, but is the idea that the war over Snyder is done? I have read plenty of responses on twitter. The war seems very much alive out in the social media landscape. It's the reason this is a story at all and also in my own bit of speculation, why Fisher probably hasn't dropped it yet. I know my Spidey sense tingles when someone is annoying me on the internet. Can't imagine having it directed right at you. Probably didn't help when during a time period of civil unrest where a black man was maybe just venting for a bit, a white male actor decided it was their place to defend their white male director friend who isn't very big on diversity and already has a known history of being scummy. By the way, I love Alan Tudyk, but that was dumb. There is no way considering who he is and his relationship with Whedon, he could speak on that in any sort of constructive manner.

So basically, if there isn't a lot going on from either Fisher or Whedon, there does seem to be way more talk of nonexistent fire, that really only seems to exist because of the hot button issue that will never go away. Snyder and his connection to DC. And well, that inherently brings out feelings. Which if I am fair, makes me rather curious to see what happens if Fisher says more or if Whedon, the poop head himself dare speaks. And to think, I was only excited about the Nevers press tour because I might get to see Eleanor Tomlinson.

 

[Zarex]

Also this isn't a question of reputation. We already know Whedon is a pretty crappy person. His ex-wife laid it all out there for people to see, and yet he still has the weird geek worship. So it isn't like Joss Whedon's reputation is even an issue here.

We know he's a crappy HUSBAND, which doesn't exactly make Joss an outlier for high profile Hollywood creatives. But this wasn't an Ellen situation where a deluge of folks have come out and said "Yeah, he SUCKS!" after the ice was broken. So far there has been Ray and an awful story involving stunt performers, but not much else over a very lengthy career.

 

[Bayne]

People can have whatever discussion they want here as long as it falls inside the parameters of the thread. Discuss it to everyone's satisfaction. Heck, I am now discussing this again, and there apparently isn't anything new to even go on. But what exactly is the pursuit here? Truth? There feels like too much speculation on intent or reasoning for that to be the case. All the talk of what little Fisher has said and led to some crazy extrapolation of him as a person and that feels not great imo.

Also, not "everyone" has been willing to listen. Maybe on the collective Hype, maybe? I am no longer the adventurous ranger I use to be, so I don't venture past the wall all that often, but is the idea that the war over Snyder is done? I have read plenty of responses on twitter. The war seems very much alive out in the social media landscape. It's the reason this is a story at all and also in my own bit of speculation, why Fisher probably hasn't dropped it yet. I know my Spidey sense tingles when someone is annoying me on the internet. Can't imagine having it directed right at you. Probably didn't help when during a time period of civil unrest where a black man was maybe just venting for a bit, a white male actor decided it was their place to defend their white male director friend who isn't very big on diversity and already has a known history of being scummy. By the way, I love Alan Tudyk, but that was dumb. There is no way considering who he is and his relationship with Whedon, he could speak on that in any sort of constructive manner.

So basically, if there isn't a lot going on from either Fisher or Whedon, there does seem to be way more talk of nonexistent fire, that really only seems to exist because of the hot button issue that will never go away. Snyder and his connection to DC. And well, that inherently brings out feelings. Which if I am fair, makes me rather curious to see what happens if Fisher says more or if Whedon, the poop head himself dare speaks. And to think, I was only excited about the Nevers press tour because I might get to see Eleanor Tomlinson.

Oh, I make no defense of the internet at large. Social media is a cesspool, just generally speaking.

But what's happening here, in this thread, looks like nothing more to me than people responding to Fisher's own posts by trying to figure out what the point of his posts is. Inevitably, most of the speculation will be wrong, one way or the other. Whether that result (if it's ever known) will vindicate Fisher or the opposite is impossible to say for now. How people who doubted Fisher would feel if it turned out Whedon really, provably did something horrible isn't an unfair question, but neither is how people who speculated Whedon acted like a monster would feel if it turned out to be provably true that Fisher made everything up. That's just the kind of balancing act people instinctively wind up making in any situation like this because at the end of the day, if you present people with a mysterious sounding topic and no immediate resolution, then the speculation is going to commence. That's just human nature.

I can't vouch for why everyone who doubts Fisher thinks the way they do, but I honestly don't believe based on what I've read here that the subject is coming up here or being kept active here because of Fisher's connection to Snyder. The discussion of this has died out here like ten times over already and every time it's came back has been because Fisher himself deliberately restarted the whole conversation.

 

[Kev4000]

I can't vouch for why everyone who doubts Fisher thinks the way they do, but I honestly don't believe based on what I've read here that the subject is coming up here or being kept active here because of Fisher's connection to Snyder. The discussion of this has died out here like ten times over already and every time it's came back has been because Fisher himself deliberately restarted the whole conversation.

And the only reason he does this, is to use actual politic movements to push his career, which is dead.

 

[kguillou]

@DarthSkywalker I think I know what youre saying, but I believe that most people are willing to listen to Fisher but theyre becoming a little impatient because of the lack of details that he’s reluctant to give. I think its natural for people to maybe think he’s crying wolf after a while. Fisher’s been posting nothing but this on his social media for the past month.

Now, you also touched on something that I think may be key. You said, “maybe he’s just venting.” And i think thats important to take into account. Fisher is a person like anyone else and people often times do or say things out of frustration without thinking it through. I think one day he decided to “vent” on twitter/instagram etc just to see what would happen and the result was he got people’s attention—maybe more than he expected to get. So he continued to fuel the fire....to an extent.

I know Ray says that he‘s aware of the personal and professional risk hes taking but i dont really think he’s prepared to deal with the full on legal ramifications he’d face the moment he starts making definitive accusations which is why he’s reluctant to do so.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We know he's a crappy HUSBAND, which doesn't exactly make Joss an outlier for high profile Hollywood creatives. But this wasn't an Ellen situation where a deluge of folks have come out and said "Yeah, he SUCKS!" after the ice was broken. So far there has been Ray and an awful story involving stunt performers, but not much else over a very lengthy career.

What?

One when you are an awful spouse, that is who you are as a person. Second, it isn't an outlier for a cop to be a racist, but we don't downplay that fact. Probably shouldn't do that with "high profile Hollywood creatives" considering we just went through MeToo.

By the way, have you read the stuff about Ellen? I don't like her, I'd be happy if she disappeared, but what Whedon is accused of is way worse then anything specifically against Ellen that I have seen. Her producers? Yeah. Ellen herself? No. Apparently she's super rude, doesn't say high and has sensitive nose. Is there more? If not, I wouldn't consider it worse gaslighting your spouse to the point that she needs to seek therapy while you use your position of power to get women to sleep with you. But hey, maybe I am just sensitive about long standing emotional abuse, especially against loved ones.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Oh, I make no defense of the internet at large. Social media is a cesspool, just generally speaking.

But what's happening here, in this thread, looks like nothing more to me than people responding to Fisher's own posts by trying to figure out what the point of his posts is. Inevitably, most of the speculation will be wrong, one way or the other. Whether that result (if it's ever known) will vindicate Fisher or the opposite is impossible to say for now. How people who doubted Fisher would feel if it turned out Whedon really, provably did something horrible isn't an unfair question, but neither is how people who speculated Whedon acted like a monster would feel if it turned out to be provably true that Fisher made everything up. That's just the kind of balancing act people instinctively wind up making in any situation like this because at the end of the day, if you present people with a mysterious sounding topic and no immediate resolution, then the speculation is going to commence. That's just human nature.

I can't vouch for why everyone who doubts Fisher thinks the way they do, but I honestly don't believe based on what I've read here that the subject is coming up here or being kept active here because of Fisher's connection to Snyder. The discussion of this has died out here like ten times over already and every time it's came back has been because Fisher himself deliberately restarted the whole conversation.

I find the idea that giving into the worst impulses of general cringe culture being something to many people do, not really grounds to start accusing a dude of some of the stuff that is being accused of Fisher in this thread. Even if he is 100% making it up, it wouldn't be warranted. But JL came out 3 years ago, and we know what character was sliced in the edit, and it was the black character. Not that I think Cyborg should have even been in the first JL movie, but it was what it was.

Moreover, the only reason this topic is being discussed here is the geek/superhero connection that brings Snyder, Whedon, and the JL together. It literally wouldn't be here without it and I can't help but notice that it is the guy with the geek cred who is getting the benefit of the doubt. Also there is a level of expectation setting which unless Fisher comes out talking about how Whedon walked around in a white hood saying the N word every 5 seconds, people going to down play it.

But beyond all that. Fisher has given his reason for his vagueness, and to expect anything other then vagueness until that is no longer an issue, feels rather intentionally like missing the point.

 

[Schlosser85]

If Fisher either can't say anything specific, or doesn't have anything more to say, than he shouldn't be continuously making these vague insinuations, because rightly or wrongly it makes him look like he's just throwing vague gossip out there, and keeps reiterating it every so often to keep people talking about it, i.e. keep people talking about himself, which frankly no one would be doing if it wasn't for him accusing Joss Whedon.

Also in light of how vague his accusations are, him quoting John Lewis by saying he's getting in "good trouble" just looks self-aggrandizing and even insulting to Lewis.

 

[Detective Conan]

In other news...



Could Reynolds be in the Snyder Cut after all?

Edit: Nevermind.

 

[Zarex]

What?

One when you are an awful spouse, that is who you are as a person. Second, it isn't an outlier for a cop to be a racist, but we don't downplay that fact. Probably shouldn't do that with "high profile Hollywood creatives" considering we just went through MeToo.

By the way, have you read the stuff about Ellen? I don't like her, I'd be happy if she disappeared, but what Whedon is accused of is way worse then anything specifically against Ellen that I have seen. Her producers? Yeah. Ellen herself? No. Apparently she's super rude, doesn't say high and has sensitive nose. Is there more? If not, I wouldn't consider it worse gaslighting your spouse to the point that she needs to seek therapy while you use your position of power to get women to sleep with you. But hey, maybe I am just sensitive about long standing emotional abuse, especially against loved ones.

I dunno. Some folks are bad partners due to immaturity, financial stress, health problems, sexual incompatibility, etc. and end up in successful relationships down the road. Equating infidelity to a cop's racism is silly. I wouldn't call Whedon a bad person just because he cheated on his wife and lied about it. An awful lot of people are in that boat. And while accusations of a casting couch were levied, we don't have any receipts. It's a smidge presumptuous to make judgements about someone's intimate relationships without knowing the whole picture.

 

[Schlosser85]

Just because someone does something "bad" in one aspect of their life doesn't mean that's who they are everywhere else.

 

[Flint Marko]

Now, you also touched on something that I think may be key. You said, “maybe he’s just venting.” And i think thats important to take into account. Fisher is a person like anyone else and people often times do or say things out of frustration without thinking it through. I think one day he decided to “vent” on twitter/instagram etc just to see what would happen and the result was he got people’s attention—maybe more than he expected to get. So he continued to fuel the fire....to an extent.

I know Ray says that he‘s aware of the personal and professional risk hes taking but i dont really think he’s prepared to deal with the full on legal ramifications he’d face the moment he starts making definitive accusations which is why he’s reluctant to do so.

I think you're on to something here. Could be me projecting but it does feel like Ray started talking about this and maybe didn't quite realize the full ramifications of what he was doing until the cat was out of the bag.

I just don't think vaguely teasing serious allegations was ever his intended end game.

 

[Zarex]

When Melissa Benoist divorced her husband and appeared to move on rather quickly into her costar's arms I thought that was terrible behavior from the Supergirl star. Turns out the ex husband was beating her on the regular. I should have known better than to judge her behavior when I don't know a damn thing about the woman or her relationship.

Kai Cole may have been a wonderful loving spouse who was emotionally abused by her ex husband. Or not. You can end up looking like an idiot, as I did, when you make assumptions in these situations.

 

[kguillou]

For sure. But I do think its fair for some people to naturally want Ray to...finish his sentence, so to speak. He’s got people’s attention and theyre listening but he’s not saying anything. And he may very well have a good reason for it but since he’s half putting his business out there on social media, people naturally want him to elaborate.

Its a sticky situation. But my own opinion is he felt very frustrated one day and decided to throw a bread crumb to see if any pigeons would bite and now they did and he has to think very carefully about his next move. Again, I dont think Ray’s goal is send Whedon behind bars or anything, I believe ultimately his goal is to get Whedon to make a sincere “mea culpa” statement and apologize for his behavior on the set of JL, thus taking “accountability.”

 

[Blade Hoarder]

By the way, have you read the stuff about Ellen? I don't like her, I'd be happy if she disappeared, but what Whedon is accused of is way worse then anything specifically against Ellen that I have seen. Her producers? Yeah. Ellen herself? No. Apparently she's super rude, doesn't say high and has sensitive nose. Is there more?

It’s rather sad that those are the things that have cancelled Ellen. And not, you know ......promoting and normalizing a war criminal who killed 100,000 people in Iraq.

 

[Deck Rickard]

If Fisher either can't say anything specific, or doesn't have anything more to say, than he shouldn't be continuously making these vague insinuations, because rightly or wrongly it makes him look like he's just throwing vague gossip out there, and keeps reiterating it every so often to keep people talking about it, i.e. keep people talking about himself, which frankly no one would be doing if it wasn't for him accusing Joss Whedon.

Also in light of how vague his accusations are, him quoting John Lewis by saying he's getting in "good trouble" just looks self-aggrandizing and even insulting to Lewis.

Seriously. Maybe Whedon did do something really awful and racist on set but whatever abuse Fisher may have received I don't think it raises to the level of getting your head split open by bigots just because you attempted to cross a bridge. Obviously Lewis' "good trouble" can be applied to lesser struggles but if you're going to adopt that phrase, then I think you owe it to Lewis to explain exactly how you're getting into good trouble.

 

[Zarex]

It’s rather sad that those are the things that have cancelled Ellen. And not, you know ......promoting and normalizing a war criminal who killed 100,000 people in Iraq.

That same war criminal pushed hard behind the scenes to get Brett Kavanaugh onto the Supreme Court. Where he dissented on the case that ruled LGBTQ workers have equal rights in the workplace. Thank goodness Supreme Court rulings don't impact the wealthies like Ellen and Portia!

 

[Schlosser85]

Did Ellen's association with Dubya entail anything beyond.....sitting next to him and making civil conversation at a baseball game?

 

[MadVillainy]

Yikes. Some interesting statements here regarding Fisher vs Whedon.

1) I'm saying this as someone who's experienced direct and systemic racism as a black man all their life, bringing up the current political climate in regards to racism and BLM as it pertains to this Fisher/Whedon thing is clownery. At least at this time. To my knowledge, we haven't heard anything of Whedon specifically being racist. So why bring it up? I was on here the moment that first Fisher tweet came out and from the jump a bunch on Snyderites claimed racism and when pressed if they know the details they said, and I'm paraphrasing "I don't know that that happened, but you can insinuate". I expect that from those kind of posters, but I find this thread for the most part pretty level headed. And it's a clown move to bring BLM, racism, etc. about this particular instance at this stage when we know so little.

2) I have seen a few try and push this narrative lately and I don't get it. This narrative that Snyder is this huge hated director or something along those lines.
Snyder is not well liked, no doubt, and there are people who bash him. For sure. But "a war on Snyder" is so overly dramatic. If you're gonna use that then I don't know what you'd call what happens with M. NIght, Michael Bay, George Lucas, Uwe Boll, Tyler Perry (not so much anymore but still), Paul Feig, and to a lesser extent Rian Johnson. Those guys are HAAAAATED online. They can't scratch their nose without people getting mad at them. I just don't see anywhere near that level of hate or vitrol for Snyder as a person as I do with those examples I named above. If it's there it's not a very sizable group of people. And I'm on Twitter, Reddit, IG, and here. Especially not enough for a majority or even a sizeable amount of people to say "Fisher is friends with Snyder so I'm gonna believe Whedon because **** Snyder" Again, a couple weeks ago someone in this thread someone came in saying that we were acting like the Snyder Cut hurt our family (or something along those lines). When that simply isn't true. People don't like it or don't wanna watch it, sure. But most said despite their criticism their gonna watch it and/or they didn't insult other who will. I don't get why people are trying to act like it is

3) AS @Bayne and @kguillou said, the only reason we're talking about this is because Fisher keeps bringing it up. We all kinda move on for some time and then, low and behold, Fisher makes another post or statement about it. And all his statements have been very vague and very open-ended. It's like his whole life online now this "Accountability>>entertainment" thing. Which is a great thing to be about, but it seems weird how he's carrying it with his own experience. From ignoring co stars who have their own accountability issues to him being vague and refusing to give more details saying "I have an NDA." It's just very off
NDA's are so easily broken btw. Not publicly maybe, but you know there are whistle blowers, off the record sources, etc. So even if it wasn't Fisher himself, someone would've let something spill. I'm sure all these Ellen co workers/ex workers had signed NDAs, I'm sure people on the set of SMILF had NDAs. Hell with Fan4stic we all heard so many rumors about Trank. With Joss Whedon on the JL set, I don't think we have anything really other than he was dismissive of the Snyder stuff. Which yeah unprofessional but doesn't call for all of this.

4) You can't be mad about people not really taking Fisher seriously when he's being so vague. That is such a big thing with MeToo, people saying we don't have al lthe details and stuff like that. But in this case, we have no first hand details. The best we have is what Kevin Smith heard.

I've said before, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Whedon probably was unprofessional on set. Was he "abusive" or "toxic?" Idk but it seems very weird to me that we haven't heard really anything serious. Not even a concrete rumor (or as concrete as rumors can be). I've said I never was that big of a fan of Whedon and I always thought his feminism stuff was pretty reductive to "my women kick ass." I also find it very telling that a) nobody on set has come to his defense b) Berg didn't deny Whedon was acting up. He just covered himself and Johns c) Whedon isn't even defending himself. It doesn't matter if he doesn't know the specifics, I find it weird that he isn't defending himself in anyway after being called "abusive"

That being said I'm not gonna jump out the window and ostracize Whedon for this when none of the claims are even being detailed at all. We'll see. I feel like if there was a huge story about what happened on the JL set we would've heard by now or very soon. I remember when Chris D'Elia got outed, you saw chatter online that Bryan Callen was next. And then just this past weekend, a month after D'Elia, Callen was outed. It's been about a month since Fisher sent out that initial tweet. If there's a story, a major trade or publication will be posting it soon.

And even if Whedon was abusive, Fisher is also gonna look like a real doof if he stands by and is on panels or buddy buddy with Ezra Miller, Ben Affleck, or anybody that stands by them too. So I hope he keeps that same energy. After all, it's "Accountability>>entertainment" right?

EDIT: And I'm not saying that Whedon for sure isn't racist or abusive on set. I'm just saying I'm not running out and saying that and it's kinda silly to at this point