Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 58

[Spider-Fan]

I am hyped for PLENTY of Phase 5 and 6 stuff!

 

[kguillou]

X-men is probably the MCU’s next big secret weapon but I’m sure Feige is waiting to break out those big guns until after Secret Wars.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

It’s gonna be a while before we get our first taste of MCU X-Men but I think the multiverse stuff is a good indicator that we may see more fox characters before or during secret wars. Hell, Deadpool 3 will probably feature a bunch of them for all we know.

 

[henzINNIT]

Wakanda Forever: It's long. The cast are working hard. Lupita remains stunning and largely wasted. King fish flaps was pretty good but I'm not sure I bought the conflict.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I'm willing to bet Deadpool 3 ties into secret wars.

 

[Detective Conan]

One more Conroy tribute:

 

[KBX]

IMO deserves it

 

[MarvelFan]

Finally watched Wakanda Forever.

What can I say?
I loved itttt!!

Here's the review:
Because it is a little bit long, I will put it on spoiler.
I will also put in in one post on WF review thread.

Spoiler

This is more personal and emotional movie compared to the first movie.
As someone who already has lost 2 family members, this movie really hits me hard especially at the beginning where I was tearing up during T'Challa's funeral scene.

For that alone... to me, this movie is already better than the first movie.

This is a movie that had many adversaries and obstacles even before they began production. A sudden loss of Chadwick, Letitia Wright's controversies and her injuries that caused a numerious temporary shutdown on the production, until the doubts among many, whether the rest of the casts could carry the whole movie or not without their main lead.

And Ryan Coogler and co, imo had successfully delivered on that front. Given the circumstances, it is almost impossible for Coogler and Marvel to even managed this huge challenges to give a satisfying followup to the cultural phenomenon of the first movie....,and yet they managed to do just that and give us not only a moving tribute to Chadwick, and also give imo, the one of the best in MCU. Really..they couldnt give us a better movie than this one.

And the cast...they brought in their A game for each of their respective roles. Especially Letitia's Shuri and Angela Bassett's Queen Ramonda.
They are the heart and soul of the movie that felt a huge hole in it without Chadwick.

I know Letitia's antics in real life had caused controversies and understandably so many had called up for her and upset about it...and I am not condone at all of her actions nor her views, but I just want to urge fans to appreciate what she brings into this movie. Her arc in the movie is one the best in the MCU (eventhough it is mirroring T'Challa's arc in Civil War).

I also like to pointed out Danai Gurira as Okoye.
I think here she gave one of the best performances in MCU. Look back at the scene where she was stripped out of her position as Dora Milaje. You could see in her faces of how pain and heartbroken she really is when the one thing that gave her life meaning and the only thing that she devoted her entire life into, has been taken from her. Such an underrated scenes from a great actress here.

For the villains...I have no problem with Namor and Talokan. I think they served their purposes here really well as a foil for Wakanda. Though I hope there is more deep motivation from Namor to invade Wakanda.

And I am glad Marvel hasnt killing him at his first appearance, there is so many to explore with this character in the future.
At the end, with the alliance between Wakanda and Talokan, it is also to set up a future confrontation with a certain another kingdom. (When Namor said "any nations would be willing to stripped off Wakanda of their resources given any opportunity" or something like that), I couldnt help to think of Latveria.

 

[MarvelFan]

As for Riri, i love her
This movie has set her up nicely to introduce her before her own series.
I see some had thought her as annoying and shoehorned into the movie. But to me, perhaps thats the way Generation Z has usually act,talk,and behave, especially someone her age. So, I have no problem with that.

For her being shoehorned into the movie...well she was not being shoehorned any more than the Spider-Man shoehorned cameo in Civil War.
And for all I know, Spidey was also being shoehorned in CW but he was praised to the sky by fans....so I dont see any problem of Riri being in the movie.

 

[MarvelFan]

One other thing that I'd like to pointed it out is the Midnight Angel suit that many had also criticized about.
All I can say is that is not some random suit that put in to the movie, that is from the comics.
It was introduced first in TaNehisi coates's run. (As you can see below).

In the comics, 2 former Dora Milaje couple who wore it is Ayo and Aneka. (Both were also appearing in the movie...and also hinted mildly as a couple, too).

 

[Sithborg]

I'm willing to bet Deadpool 3 ties into secret wars.

It won't.

 

[MarvelFan]

That's the thing that gets me. There were multiple points in the third act, where things could have been played as emotionally triumphant moments. But because some aspects were rushed, some elements wanted to be played more sinister than it needed, and hell, the resolution is resolved a bit bad for the heroes. Now, I imagine what Coogler was going for was a bit more of a realistic approach to how he and the cast were feeling. And honestly it might have worked if they had not kept the original emotional impact of the 2nd act.

Comparison to Logan is weird, because as dour as that movie was, it ended a lot more hopeful than this movie. And yes, I do not consider the post credits stuff to be part of the movie. If its important, put it in the damn movie itself.

I think thats intended to be made that way, though..

Spoiler

At first the reason Shuri put on the suit is to take revenge on Namor. And thats why the person she saw on the dream is Killmonger.

So, I believe Coogler deliberately put that uncomfortable or sinister feels on our protagonist in the 3rd act. That it is not intended to be a triumpant moment as it is part of her arc here that mirroring her brother in Civil War.

 

[Sithborg]

I think thats intended to be made that way, though..

Spoiler

At first the reason Shuri put on the suit is to take revenge on Namor. And thats why the person she saw on the dream is Killmonger.

So, I believe Coogler deliberately put that uncomfortable or sinister feels on our protagonist in the 3rd act. That it is not intended to be a triumpant moment as it is part of her arc here that mirroring her brother in Civil War.

I absolutely know why they did it. And I don' necessarily fault him for why they did the way they did. The film was as much about their grief as it was about the character's grief. And it is a realistic take. I'm not asking for immediate light hearted moment after a moment of tragedy. I just needed some bits of heroic triumph to counter a near full movie of grieving. But then again, it may be a personal issue given things in my life recently.

 

[MarvelFan]

I absolutely know why they did it. And I don' necessarily fault him for why they did the way they did. The film was as much about their grief as it was about the character's grief. And it is a realistic take. I'm not asking for immediate light hearted moment after a moment of tragedy. I just needed some bits of heroic triumph to counter a near full movie of grieving. But then again, it may be a personal issue given things in my life recently.

Things has not been quite easy on myself too recently...and the needed for some inspired moment is definitely understandable, so I get what you're saying.

Though to me, the last of WF has been quite hopeful and empowering.

 

[MarvelFan]

Watched the movie, still collecting my thoughts. The Latinx savages were pretty much as racists as I expected. Especially in the light of the comparison to the Wakanda folk. The commentary on colonialism is lost when you know, disconnect the people from it.

Spoiler

The first film is all about empathy for modern people for what happened to them. Here they separate the plight of Latinx/Hispanic folk by tying this all to hundreds of years ago, without a modern prospective. Having the people walk around like savages as opposed to Wakanda, where they keep their traditions, but also have modern tech and clothes.

Outside of that, Namor was cool even with his ugly Yeezys, AB was amazing, Lupita was great, and I enjoyed seeing Okoye again. Riri was fun, but so unnecessary, as was the entire CIA plotline, which just slowed the film down. Could of done with more M'Baku.

I do not expect this to have great legs, as it's super long and super melancholy. Wouldn't be surprised if this tapped out under 500m, even with the A Cinemascore.

I am always curious to what is wrong with Namor's Latin/Mexican heritage in the movie.
You said it is racist since the first trailer came out, but I dont really know or aware how or what. (I wanted to ask before but decided not to because afraid it will wade into politics talk...but after I watched the movie, I am just really curious here.haha)

So, can you please kindly tell me whats in Namor's Talokan culture in the movie that you see as racist interpretation here, if you dont mind me ask? Hehe.
Thanks before

 

[TheWiseGuy487]

I sometimes agree with him on principle, but I also think he can be a bit hyperbolic a lot of the time. This is not one of his best takes.
https://twitter.com/HiTopFilms/status/1591991720933478401

Spoiler

The BvS “Martha” comparison, not the other stuff.

Then again, he was a big fan of Doctor Strange 2, the film that indulged in the Sam Raimi craziness at the expense of Wanda‘s previous character arc and turned her into a psycho, powerful crazy woman needlessly killing characters for her children, and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, whose politics were very confused and muddled with its support of cops and centrist rhetoric in the finale.

But, hey, character assassination and weird political stances is fine as long as the thing that you’re watching has a unique vision and style.

 

[metaphysician]

Quite the contrary, I didn’t feel like Riri or America were shoehorned into these movies. Both of those characters served their respective purpose to help balance out the main hero.

Riri had some legit funny ass one liners in this movie too. My audience was cracking up.

Eh, I'd split the difference. America Chavez was central to the story of MoM, in that she was both the driving macguffin and had a character arc of her own. Riri, OTOH, was somewhat extraneous, if still fun. The difference is that Riri was a fun side character in a large ensemble, whereas America was the deuteragonist in a story which a much narrower cast. They have different roles and functions.

 

[metaphysician]

I am always curious to what is wrong with Namor's Latin/Mexican heritage in the movie.
You said it is racist since the first trailer came out, but I dont really know or aware how or what. (I wanted to ask before but decided not to because afraid it will wade into politics talk...but after I watched the movie, I am just really curious here.haha)

So, can you please kindly tell me whats in Namor's Talokan culture in the movie that you see as racist interpretation here, if you dont mind me ask? Hehe.
Thanks before

I suppose one could argue that making them Meso-American as opposed to Latin-American, but. . . that kind of feels like begging the question. Especially since Wakanda is *also* ahistorical in that it is a society of African people not defined by colonization. The whole point is "powerful non-western nation not defined by centuries of colonialism". If Tlalocan is racist because it doesn't represent the lives and existence of Latin American people who actually were defined by centuries of colonial transformation, why is Wakanda not *also* racist because it doesn't represent the lives and existence of African people who were defined by centuries of colonial transformation?

 

[henzINNIT]

Then again, he was a big fan of Doctor Strange 2, the film that indulged in the Sam Raimi craziness at the expense of Wanda‘s previous character arc and turned her into a psycho, powerful crazy woman needlessly killing characters for her children, and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, whose politics were very confused and muddled with its support of cops and centrist rhetoric in the finale.

But, hey, character assassination and weird political stances is fine as long as the thing that you’re watching has a unique vision and style.

Wandavision ended with Wanda further isolating herself from people and this time with the bumper book of evil for company. The jump from accidentally hurting people to deliberately doing so for the sake of her own comfort wasn't a tremendous leap in my opinion.

F&WS was just shoddy though. Agreed there.

Eh, I'd split the difference. America Chavez was central to the story of MoM, in that she was both the driving macguffin and had a character arc of her own. Riri, OTOH, was somewhat extraneous, if still fun. The difference is that Riri was a fun side character in a large ensemble, whereas America was the deuteragonist in a story which a much narrower cast. They have different roles and functions.

A knock for Riri's integration is also how she is introduced as a key target for multiple factions, only for that to be largely forgotten about by the third act.

I liked her well enough though, except the suit designs.

 

[metaphysician]

Then again, he was a big fan of Doctor Strange 2, the film that indulged in the Sam Raimi craziness at the expense of Wanda‘s previous character arc and turned her into a psycho, powerful crazy woman needlessly killing characters for her children, and Falcon and the Winter Soldier, whose politics were very confused and muddled with its support of cops and centrist rhetoric in the finale.

But, hey, character assassination and weird political stances is fine as long as the thing that you’re watching has a unique vision and style.

*cough* Superhero stories should almost always be "supportive of cops" in the sense that the superhero doesn't take it on themselves to be judge jury and executioner. Because that is the only alternative a superhero has: if they *don't* turn over those malefactors they stop to law enforcement, and implicitly grant legitimacy and support to the idea of governmental power? Then they have to do it themselves. And do you *really* want superheroes whose standard policy for prisoners is either "I don't take any, ever" or else "Doc Savage had the right idea, I'm going to run my own private prison"?

 

[Boy Scout]

*cough* Superhero stories should almost always be "supportive of cops" in the sense that the superhero doesn't take it on themselves to be judge jury and executioner. Because that is the only alternative a superhero has: if they *don't* turn over those malefactors they stop to law enforcement, and implicitly grant legitimacy and support to the idea of governmental power? Then they have to do it themselves. And do you *really* want superheroes whose standard policy for prisoners is either "I don't take any, ever" or else "Doc Savage had the right idea, I'm going to run my own private prison"?

I’d argue that’s support for the legal system in general, not cops specifically.

Besides: violent vigilantes make up half the genre and they definitely don’t support the police.

 

[Batgirl0202]

I personally find the suggestion inspiring that an African and Mesoamerican nation could both be formidable enough to develop independent from colonialism.

Having said that, everyone has different triggers. If somebody finds Namor's depiction offense, for either personal or political reasons, that's how they feel.

We here are probably giving this more thought than Feige and Coogler did. Their biggest concern was probably how to differentiate Namor from the Distinguished Competition's Aquabro...

 

[Pennywise]

Box Office: ‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Opens to $180M, November Record – Deadline

 

[Ninjablade]

I totally understand where Darth is coming from in terms of finding the Atlanteans offensive. The Mayan history and inspiration isn't the issue, and is a fine starting point. It's the fact that they didn't do anything beyond that or try to modernize their society at all. They have this advanced metal, which we know has made Wakanda this insane science fiction civilization. Yet, they just used it to make a giant light (which begs all kinds of world building issues/questions but I digress), and then their incredibly primitive armor and weaponry. There's no sense that they're really that more advanced than their original colony 300 years ago.

With that premise, they then portray the Atlanteans unequivocally as villains that are killing innocent people, and invading peaceful lands with savage methods. Their first introduction is portrayed as a horror scene, in which they basically The Happening-ed a bunch of researchers exploring what they thought was just the open waters. All this does is just harken back to the stereotypical portrayal of ancient Latin American societies. Coupled with the fact that the commentary the film wants to have isn't ever actually explored properly, it's not a great showing of representation outside of some very basic surface level casting and costume design.

 

[Pennywise]