Superhero Cinematic Civil War - Part 57

[Schlosser85]

Black Panther would've been a huge deal with or without the MCU. That isn't true of all MCU movies, but it is true of Panther. Hell, it probably would've done even better critically if it was just a straight-up Coogler joint with none of Marvel's pre-requisite compromises and bad CG second-unit action.

Didn't Coogler demand a measure of independence before he signed on to direct?

I agree though, it was seen as an empowering landmark for black audiences in a way that went beyond the MCU, similarly to how Wonder Woman was seen for women. They were cultural phenomenons unto themselves, not just the latest CBM.

 

[Boy Scout]

Me neither. People can try and downplay the Marvel factor all they want but if WB or any other studio released the exact same movie it doesn't make even half of what it did

Yeah, I'm gonna call bull**** on that. No one can deny that the Marvel brand helped, but your central thesis is wrong because it ignores cultural reality. Scores of people - but specifically black folks - have been waiting on a movie like BP for a very, very long time. The Marvel brand just gave people some measure of confidence that it wouldn't suck and set black cinema back a few decades.

 

[fan4stic]

He just finished up a 2 year stint on Captain America. Everything I've seen has been its been a solid run. Especially given the state of Cap that he inherited him from (post Secret Empire). Given his run on Captain America, I can easily see why he would be a pick to write Superman, regardless of ethnicity.

I said I assumed he had a connection to Superman and such.

 

[writer0327]

Black Panther would've been a huge deal with or without the MCU. That isn't true of all MCU movies, but it is true of Panther. Hell, it probably would've done even better critically if it was just a straight-up Coogler joint with none of Marvel's pre-requisite compromises and bad CG second-unit action.

I will agree it might have been a better movie, but not as financially profitable of course.

 

[fan4stic]

Superman isn’t a white character. He is a default character. He is a alien for gods sake. He is portrayed as a white male because he was created in 1939. This isn’t hard.

I don't think it really matters. Not only do I think it's an assumption that if the character was developed, for the first time like that, now, that the character wouldn't be something like that, but I also don't think the character has to be anything other than what the character is. I think how the character has always looked is a reason enough for the character to be what it is, looks-wise.

 

[fan4stic]

[points to New Mutants]

I wonder how many people know or care about New Mutants characters. If someone doesn't like what was done there, I think that is their God given free will to do so. But, I think whether or not someone cares, in some cases, can be connected to whether or not they know the character.

 

[KBX]

Black Panther makes tons of $$$ if any studio releases that film and not in the MCU. It’s fair to say however that Black Panther doesn’t get made if it wasn’t for the MCU.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Black Panther still would have likely made a lot of money if it wasn't in the MCU, but it probably wouldn't have made as much.

For a comparison, look at how Captain Marvel grossed $300 million more than Wonder Woman did. That's not an insignicant amount.

 

[Schlosser85]

Black Panther still would have likely made a lot of money if it wasn't in the MCU, but it probably wouldn't have made as much.

For a comparison, look at how Captain Marvel grossed $300 million more than Wonder Woman did. That's not an insignicant amount.

Even with Wonder Woman being a good deal more touted IIRC.

 

[Web-Head]

Captain Marvel being released between Infinity War and Endgame helped a ton too. The credits scene got a lot of people hyped.

On that same token, most Thursday night showings for the MCU movies were pretty full, but Black Panther and Captain Marvel both sold out at my theater.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

I see merit to both sides of the Black Panther debate.

 

[Sithborg]

I wonder how many people know or care about New Mutants characters. If someone doesn't like what was done there, I think that is their God given free will to do so. But, I think whether or not someone cares, in some cases, can be connected to whether or not they know the character.

Let's be honest, most people won't know the vast majority of minority characters. Both Reyes and Sunspot were recast from black characters of african descent, to characters of more hispanic decent. And the whole debate is very messy because then you get into the issues of an actor's "shade". The character's shade is a big issue in the comics. Marvel just had to rerelease a preview page for X-corps to darken M's skin. And it doesn't help that the director was racist in his response to the criticisms.

Black Panther makes tons of $$$ if any studio releases that film and not in the MCU. It’s fair to say however that Black Panther doesn’t get made if it wasn’t for the MCU.

For a long time, it was never going to get made because of the MCU.

Black Panther still would have likely made a lot of money if it wasn't in the MCU, but it probably wouldn't have made as much.

For a comparison, look at how Captain Marvel grossed $300 million more than Wonder Woman did. That's not an insignicant amount.

The big difference between Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman is the theme, and I am quite certain that is the big difference in box office. I love Wonder Woman, but it didn't tap into the public zeitgeist quite like Captain Marvel. You just need to look at the Woman's March to realize this. Black Panther did the same thing with Killmonger.

I'm sure the MCU played a little bit of a factor. But looking at Ragnorok and Ant-man and Wasp, it is clear the "MCU bump" is limited.

Captain Marvel being released between Infinity War and Endgame helped a ton too. The credits scene got a lot of people hyped.

On that same token, most Thursday night showings for the MCU movies were pretty full, but Black Panther and Captain Marvel both sold out at my theater.

Where's Ant-man and Wasp's billion?

 

[The Batman]

I wouldn't say CM did a better job of tapping into the zeitgeist than WW did. I'd also say that in the long run, WW is the more memorable film between the two.

 

[Schlosser85]

I thought WW was overrated personally but I think it’s undeniably more of a cultural phenomenon than Captain Marvel was.

 

[writer0327]

Captain Marvel was a key component to the cliffhanger following Infinity War with the end credit scene. Without that, I think the box office numbers are definitely less. Everyone needed to see how she fit into the total picture.

 

[fan4stic]

Let's be honest, most people won't know the vast majority of minority characters. Both Reyes and Sunspot were recast from black characters of african descent, to characters of more hispanic decent. And the whole debate is very messy because then you get into the issues of an actor's "shade". The character's shade is a big issue in the comics. Marvel just had to rerelease a preview page for X-corps to darken M's skin. And it doesn't help that the director was racist in his response to the criticisms.

Maybe so. But I think it can be down to whether or not someone cares about the character, in some cases. If they don't know the character, why should they care?

 

[fan4stic]

Where's Ant-man and Wasp's billion?

Based on the surrounding energy of that movie, and IW not leading into it, I wouldn't necessarily suggest a strong attraction to it.

This doesn't mean the female character thing didn't attract people. But I think the MCU, the IW tie in, brought in publicity as well.

 

[Sithborg]

Maybe so. But I think it can be down to whether or not someone cares about the character, in some cases. If they don't know the character, why should they care?

So, Hiemdall and Valkryie are more popular than second tier X-men? Got it....

 

[fan4stic]

So, Hiemdall and Valkryie are more popular than second tier X-men? Got it....

I said in some cases.

 

[Lencho01]

I hear you and I agree for the most part, but I don't know, there's something there with a Black Superman that can translate well if they really dig deep.

For example, as much as some people say that Superman is a metaphor for immigrants coming to live the American dream, you can use it to apply to African Americans and our history as well. We are descendants of a thriving continent but forced out of there by powers out of our control and brought to live in a new world that we were forced to build and defend while dealing with centuries of oppression. That sounds like Superman's trip from Krypton to Earth to me and with a writer like Coates, there's a way to connect the dots.

And then there's the whole idea of assimilation where Kal-El has to become Clark Kent so he won't ruffle any feathers, that's no different than say Black Americans trying to assimilate in spaces that people feel we don't belong in. From corporate America to the suburbs.

But that's just my interpretation.

I’d say I agree in this especially coming from my leaning towards the Golden Age/early New 52 version of the character. If one wanted Superman to relate more to what’s been going on in modern times, why not be like the version(s) who’ve had very strong opinions on corrupt cops, politicians, the KKK, school shootings, etc. and very strong approaches to dealing with them?

Now, I honestly never imagined WB would go that route with Superman on a big scale such as a tent pole/blockbuster film, but the idea is cool. The idea is even cooler if he were played by a Black actor.

Edit: Just quoting myself to give a better idea of what I’m talking about...

A moment like this would be nice...

 

[Marvel united]

I just don't see black people turning out for a Black superman film the way they turned out for Black Panther.

Black Panther showcased a futuristic yet culturely traditional fantasy fictional African nation. The movie also dealt with African diaspora's relations with Africans and colonialism. Things that will talk to a black audience. It also had the benefit of being a marvel film and marvel studios have a good track record that audiences trust.

We are most likely getting another traditional superman movie except with a black actor. Unless coates is making race a major component of his superman, I can't see anything that will draw a larger audience than previous recent superman films. JJ Abrams name isn't a guarantee of box office success either.

Ta-Nehisi Coated likes to deconstruct his characters. The man is an activist and critical analyst--race is a major component of most of his works. It's what he's know for.

It's not a coincidence that he's writing a Black Superman story. The film is almost certainly going to ponder, and explore the question of what it means for Superman to be black.

I disagree. I could easily see it being a similarly empowering film to the Black community, but for different reasons. You have to remember that Superman is the godfather of the modern superhero. It's an icon that everyone recognizes. To have that icon re-contextualized to encapsulate the Black experience is a huuuuuge deal.

Black Panther was a power fantasy as it related to the community's excellency aka Afrofuturism. A Black Superman could be the personification of black excellence as it relates to the society that Black people actually live in

An iconic image like this:

(Superman breaking chains)

Takes on a deeper meaning with a Black character. And it's not something I see being lost on Coates.

I could easily see this being a hugely important film to modern pop culture, and to contemporary conversations about race.

 

[Schlosser85]

Ta-Nehisi Coated likes to deconstruct his characters. The man is an activist and critical analyst--race is a major component of most of his works. It's what he's know for.

It's not a coincidence that he's writing a Black Superman story. The film is almost certainly going to ponder, and explore the question of what it means for Superman to be black.

I disagree. I could easily see it being a similarly empowering film to the Black community, but for different reasons. You have to remember that Superman is the godfather of the modern superhero. It's an icon that everyone recognizes. To have that icon re-contextualized to encapsulate the Black experience is a huuuuuge deal.

Black Panther was a power fantasy as it related to the community's excellency aka Afrofuturism. A Black Superman could be the personification of black excellence as it relates to the society that Black people actually live in

An iconic image like this:
View attachment 43590
(Superman breaking chains)

Takes on a deeper meaning with a Black character. And it's not something I see being lost on Coates.

I could easily see this being a hugely important film to modern pop culture, and to contemporary conversations about race.

I could see these being valid points in favor of a black Superman resonating.

 

[Web-Head]

Based on the surrounding energy of that movie, and IW not leading into it, I wouldn't necessarily suggest a strong attraction to it.

This doesn't mean the female character thing didn't attract people. But I think the MCU, the IW tie in, brought in publicity as well.

It also had a weird release. I believe it was released in the U.S. and some other countries a month or two before it was released in the U.K and other countries due to the World Cup.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Watched Superman & Lois. Something about the Superman suit looks...off. His body doesn't match Clark vs Superman body type and looks like his head shouldn't fit that body. Really hope they give that a redesign. Looks terrible.

As for the show itself, I liked it. Is this a reboot? I don't think the show is say, Netflix Daredevil quality or anything. But that episode was better than the CW stuff had been in a long while before I gave those up. So, I will watch this season. Hope it keeps it up

How many episodes is this supposed to be?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Where's Ant-man and Wasp's billion?

Ant-Man and Wasp still made over $600 million. I absolutely think it got a Marvel Boost, even if it wasn't a billion dollar grosser. Being a part of the MCU doesn't mean everything is automatically a billion dollar movie, just that it helps.

If it was made by another studio, it probably gets half that. Shazam got $360 million, for example. Birds of Prey barely got $200 million. It made more than every X-Men movie save Days of Future Past, and it was probably more profitable than that given what the respective films cost. It almost made as much as Justice League, and while Justice League was terrible, it is still a mediocre Ant-Man nearly beating the most iconic superheroes in the world in one film.