The Ongoing Serie A, La Liga, All English Football, Champions League Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 55

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I think Rashford and Sancho should have come on in the second half, one for Kane and the other for Mount. Italy was playing a back line built for them, and Southgate refused. The Henderson sub was bad, and Saka was clearly not up for it today for whatever reason.

IMO Sancho should have come on instead of Saka, I'd have swapped Grealish for Mount at the same time.

I'd also have brought on Bellingham instead of Henderson because he's more positive & Henderson struggled when he came on, probably still isn't match fit.

I'd have whipped Sterling off at the start of extra time for Rashford to get some fresh legs on.
 
I'm sure the focus in the media will be purely on any negative & abusive comments directed primarily to England's 3 that missed their pens.

I was just browsing the comments for all 3 of their most recent posts & the comments are overwhelmingly positive & supportive.

Its sad that it will be a handful of dip****s that send racial or generally abusive messages that will make the papers & not the positive & supportive messages.
 
I'm with you on pretty much everything you've written. I just don't think Rashford can be classed as one of England's best players, I don't see that from his last couple of years in an England shirt. When the post mortem comes I don't think anyone will really be saying that this tournament needed more Marcus Rashford before anyone else.
That's fair. I love Rash, he's on my team after all. But I do think he is a bit overrated, and has had a lot of issues with being overplayed that hasn't helped. What annoys me about England is, that with all that attacking talent, Southgate refused to use the best pairings for the best situations to often imo. When you have the luxury of different types of players, you got to use that. Like with Trippier today.
 
After today, anyone who complains about the players taking the knee, needs to be banned from watching and speaking about football.

 
Damn, the more you want things to change the more they stay the same. Thought it was meant to be for us this time but its back to missed pens, dodgy tactics, bad behavior by English "fans" and no doubt online racism for some players in the morning. *sigh*

Ah well it was fun again for a while at least and we got closer than we ever have but it feels like a missed opportunity and just going round in a big circle. Glad its over now though, it was a poor game in honesty sadly, as finals often are, and Italy deserved it for the way they have played most of the tournament and in this game mostly so congrats to them anyway. Still a few deflated feeling for a few days ahead with no doubt depressing stories to be told. Its the hope that kill's.

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Last night felt very much like watching the Europa League final. Set up negatively to not concede as the main objective and then when you do you cant just switch mentality or have the energy to start going for it properly. However this was Southgates plan from the start so wasnt likely to switch it up for the biggest game in 55 years. Maybe Italy are just a bit better than us at the moment though, they dominated possession and carved us open a few times.

The odd thing for me was we were set up to counter at pace with the likes of Sterling/Saka/Grealish to take on old timers Bonucci and Chiellini and never actually countered at pace, instead when we got the ball it was slow and intricate giving them chance to get men back. Very strange tactics.
 
I still think the whole taking the knee thing is silly because it's not accomplishing anything. I want racism gone in football as much as anyone but it feels like every team has been doing it for 2 years now and you still have what's happening to Saka/Rashford/Sancho happening even with all that knee bending. This really should be the time for something bigger to kick off so we can identify the people responsible and punish them. I don't mind them taking the knee but it's also not helping to solve the problem sadly.

Regarding the penalties, whether it's on the players themselves or Southgate, I fully agree with Keane. It's pretty weak IMO when you have ~100m Jack Grealish and Sterling both in their prime years not stepping up to take a penalty each letting the younger and far less experienced players take that burden. I think Rashford and Sancho will be fine but I feel the most for Saka being the youngest and this really being his tournament overall. Before this game I felt he had been the big surprise of the England team getting as much gametime as he did, doing it so well. But ending it with that penalty miss will unfairly taint what people remember and that's a heavy burden to carry with you.

Overall I don't think it was unfair that Italy won (they seemed more determined and slightly better) but I do get the disappointment from the England side with the home advantage, having taken the lead after 3 minutes and then just the underwhelming way it played out. At least on a positive England is looking better and better going into the next World Cup. :)
 
The odd thing for me was we were set up to counter at pace with the likes of Sterling/Saka/Grealish to take on old timers Bonucci and Chiellini and never actually countered at pace, instead when we got the ball it was slow and intricate giving them chance to get men back. Very strange tactics.

What made it weirder is that you could quite clearly see they couldn't cope with us when we did go at them with pace. We just gave up on the full backs going forward, Mount bombing, gave up on ever actually giving Kane an opportunity in the box. Like what other side has a goalscorer like Kane and makes him spend the majority of the tournament about 40 yards from goal?
 
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I still think the whole taking the knee thing is silly because it's not accomplishing anything. I want racism gone in football as much as anyone but it feels like every team has been doing it for 2 years now and you still have what's happening to Saka/Rashford/Sancho happening even with all that knee bending. This really should be the time for something bigger to kick off so we can identify the people responsible and punish them. I don't mind them taking the knee but it's also not helping to solve the problem sadly.

But it's kept it in the national conversation. Before this it was a tshirt once a season.
 
I still think the whole taking the knee thing is silly because it's not accomplishing anything. I want racism gone in football as much as anyone but it feels like every team has been doing it for 2 years now and you still have what's happening to Saka/Rashford/Sancho happening even with all that knee bending. This really should be the time for something bigger to kick off so we can identify the people responsible and punish them. I don't mind them taking the knee but it's also not helping to solve the problem sadly.

Regarding the penalties, whether it's on the players themselves or Southgate, I fully agree with Keane. It's pretty weak IMO when you have ~100m Jack Grealish and Sterling both in their prime years not stepping up to take a penalty each letting the younger and far less experienced players take that burden. I think Rashford and Sancho will be fine but I feel the most for Saka being the youngest and this really being his tournament overall. Before this game I felt he had been the big surprise of the England team getting as much gametime as he did, doing it so well. But ending it with that penalty miss will unfairly taint what people remember and that's a heavy burden to carry with you.

Overall I don't think it was unfair that Italy won (they seemed more determined and slightly better) but I do get the disappointment from the England side with the home advantage, having taken the lead after 3 minutes and then just the underwhelming way it played out. At least on a positive England is looking better and better going into the next World Cup. :)
The point of it is what it means to the players, especially those of color. I also think how it exposes the problem in and of itself, matters a lot to these players. They are told they are crazy, that there isn't racism, even as stuff like this happens all the time. Even as coaches of color can't get jobs. Even as stuff like the Griezmann and Dembele happens. Even as MPs attack them for simply showing their solidarity.

So yeah, the knee stuff is for the players. And if it is working for them, I can't see any issue with it.
 
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What made it weirder is that you could quite clearly see they couldn't cope with us when we did go at them with pace. We just gave up on the full backs going forward, Mount bombing, gave up on ever actually giving Kane an opportunity in the box. Like what other side has a goalscorer like Kane and makes him spend the majority of the tournament about 40 yards from goal?

Agreed, that first 30 minutes we had Italy rattled and if we had gone for the jugular we could have finished them off if we had them 2 or even 3 down by halftime, but we retracted into bus parking mode way too early second half and they are too good to repel for that length of time and we burnt energy chasing shadows for the best part of an hour and yeah never once created an opening for Kane to get a shot away. Instead we reverted to smashing the ball away and gifting it straight back to Italy time and time again, maybe it was fatigue or desperation set in but it wasnt a great plan by whoever decided this players or manager and then when it was 1-1 the tank was empty to go again or fear of making changes crept in, maybe if Grealish, Rashford and Sancho had had 45 mins of play time they do better with the pens but we can never know that but they might have created a chance or two for Kane with their pace against a tiring Italy. Again all hindsight now.

I think the sense of a massive wasted opportunity will be the over riding feeling of all this, being 1-0 up after 2 minutes in the final, at home with a bouncing Wembley is dreamland stuff and we didnt take full advantage of that, your not likely to get a better chance ever with that. We got the pens massively wrong, yeah sure, but we shouldnt have allowed Italy back in to let it get that far, I always fancied them on Pens with their experience and ability even though Pickford was great again at them.
 
@BlackFox - How are you with Southgate? I look at it through the lens that bar some Fake Sheikhs we'd have had Big Sam so I have been lenient to an extent. I think he's done a lot of good regarding the culture but you can't escape some of the shortcomings. What I'm really struggling with is after the World Cup we were balls to the wall excitement, scoring 4's and 5's but conceding. I just want to know why that went away so dramatically.
 
@BlackFox - How are you with Southgate? I look at it through the lens that bar some Fake Sheikhs we'd have had Big Sam so I have been lenient to an extent. I think he's done a lot of good regarding the culture but you can't escape some of the shortcomings. What I'm really struggling with is after the World Cup we were balls to the wall excitement, scoring 4's and 5's but conceding. I just want to know why that went away so dramatically.

Lol, yeah I was saying last night to the people I was watching with that we could be here with Big Sam and we all agreed we wouldn't be anywhere near a final and probably knocked out by Scotland or some nonsense so things g=have to be put into perspective.

Southgate is so much like Ole its uncanny. You really REALLY want this guy to be a winner to get the redemption for missing that pen in 96 and for the way he has connected the team with the fans and we are no longer losing to silly games Hodgson style to Iceland or drawing with Algeria like Capello but is he really that tactically minded and savvy to get us the wins at this level, the evidence suggests maybe not quite. We are the width of a post away from him being the manager of the European champions (I think if Rashfords pen goes in we win that shoot out) and the tactics almost worked but he must learn some lessons from the whole tournament and his own shortcomings like you say. He got out manouvered by Mancini last night who wrestled the game back in Italys favour second half and Southgate didnt react quickly enough to it, also, and perhaps his biggest flaw is adversity to taking a risk or getting a player like Grealish on the pitch a lot more of the time, two holding mifielders against Italy is one thing but against Czechs or Scotland? yeah come on Gareth lets take the handbrake off a bit here.

If he can learn those things then fair enough, he may be too stuck in his ways or point to this being a successful campaign run to change too much. With the World Cup only 18 months away it seems silly to rip this all up and start again when clearly the players feel together with him and has created a club feel to England, all rivalries and that nonsense have been swept away.

I dont think we will win the next World Cup but I would think that anyway with the location and timing of the event in boiling Qatar half way through the season, half our squad could be injured plus no home advantage or we may get a much tougher route compared to here and 2018 which probably papers over some of the flaws. I dont think we would have made the final had we faced a France, Spain, Belgium or Portugal instead of Ukraine/Denmark who pushed us nearly to pens themselves.

I think he has earned the right to one last go with this group but after that its probably time for a fresh rethink when there will be more time to strategise where we got next and how we want to play. Is 5 at the back really what we want when we still cant get over the line? There will come a point when fans will want change.
 
Yeah the last 48 hours have been thoroughly depressing in some reactions, while also entirely predictable shamefully so but also there is a silver lining with these players and team and the way they have conducted themselves and been a credit to our nation even if some of those so called "fans"/"Bandwagon jumpers" have done things off the pitch to drag our nation through the mud at the same time, I guess nothings ever perfect in this country (or any for that matter) but there is always signs of hope around and good people will always outshine the worst of us.

Although Sunday didnt go our way and we are still dealing with the aftermath of it all and some uglyness from our perspective its easy to lose sight of what was overall a wonderful tournament on the whole and there were many uplifting and happy moments even from some of the most horrific events that occurred during the event, its been a real emotional rollercoaster of good and bad and that is why we love the game so as it reflects life, good and bad, so well.

When I think back to Euro 2020 its going to stick out for so many reasons, just for the way it was at such a unique time what with the pandemic moving it back a year and things still not quite back to normal, the second day when a player nearly lost his life but thankfully recovered to tell the tale and his team mates being a credit to the Danish nation, that crazy 48 hours when we had two mad games back to back both ending 3-3 in 90 minutes and then England v Germany which was an amazing sight to see Wembley almost full and bouncing again, just the sound was incredible. Italy ran out deserved winners in the end and played some great football at times but everyone contributed and we had plenty of great games and loads of stunning goals which is what you want out of these things.

One of my favourite images from this whole tournament is the England celebration after the Denmark semi, it encapsulate's a moment when we were all together even if it was just for moment...........
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My biggest ? about the final, was why it took R&S to get on the pitch for so long. They were ready to come on WELL before they did and even when the ball went out in our favour, for a throw in or stoppage for free kick etc. we didn't get them on, that's on us and obviously the Italians are going to hurry their throw-in's etc. on their play. The players were good to go with about 10 mins remaining, it was ridiculous.
 
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