Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]476795[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]362543[/split]

 

[Heretic]

I'm aware the early PotA movies referenced the Civil Rights movement. This was made obvious with the dialogue.

This series uses Animal Farm plotlines almost directly.

Animal Farm is about class warfare. Is it not?

Yes, Animal Farm is...but this doesn't follow THAT closely, and tends to follow the more political message rather than class warfare. What...is it saying that apes are above apes?? That makes no sense...and it eventually is shown to be about a particular ape's quest for power and his followers enslaving/killing those who oppose him. I guess you could REEEEEEEEALLY stretch it to say that the apes who take control are a higher "class" than the apes they fight against...but it isn't really about who is smarter or better or more worthy, aside from "strength = power" and that the strong are the rightful rulers. The false flag attack is something the Nazis did, and they also put people in cages. I just don't think the class warfare issue is as important to the filmmakers as the other points they are making.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yes, Animal Farm is...but this doesn't follow THAT closely, and tends to follow the more political message rather than class warfare. What...is it saying that apes are above apes?? That makes no sense...and it eventually is shown to be about a particular ape's quest for power and his followers enslaving/killing those who oppose him. I guess you could REEEEEEEEALLY stretch it to say that the apes who take control are a higher "class" than the apes they fight against...but it isn't really about who is smarter or better or more worthy, aside from "strength = power" and that the strong are the rightful rulers. The false flag attack is something the Nazis did, and they also put people in cages. I just don't think the class warfare issue is as important to the filmmakers as the other points they are making.

Have you researched Animal Farm?

Farmers represented the upper class humans and the farm animals represented the working class humans.

Caesar is obviously Snowball, the idealistic leader who is chased away once animals gain control the farm.

Koba is Napoleon, the sneaky and cruel leader who chases away Snowball and controls the farm with an iron fist.

If they followed Animal Farm any closer Fox would get sued.

It doesn't matter if physical strength determined leadership in the movie. The black race doesn't determine leadership that way.

But I'm glad you noticed the False Flag attack. We may disagree on interpretation but it's clear you were paying attention.

 

[kvz5]

Saw this today and I will just echo everyone in saying that it was awesome. I didn't follow the production at all so everything was a surprise. My only regret is that I didn't re-watch Rise before watching this because it took me a while to remember everything and recognize the characters from the first one. The only one I remembered/recognized right away besides Casear was Maurice. They weren't given much to do but I actually liked the human characters as well. Especially Malcolm and his son. Was it mentioned what happened to Will? I just assumed he died from the virus too? Anyway... there were lots of moments that made me almost cry and that's always a good thing. Really superb!

 

[DA_Champion]

A miscellaneous good thing about this movie was its lack of predictability.

1) I didn't know which side would start the war;
2) I didnt know what would happen to Caeser after Koba played Brutus.
3) I didn't know what would happen with Oldman's plan and the C4.

 

[Heretic]

Have you researched Animal Farm?

Farmers represented the upper class humans and the farm animals represented the working class humans.

Caesar is obviously Snowball, the idealistic leader who is chased away once animals gain control the farm.

Koba is Napoleon, the sneaky and cruel leader who chases away Snowball and controls the farm with an iron fist.

If they followed Animal Farm any closer Fox would get sued.

It doesn't matter if physical strength determined leadership in the movie. The black race doesn't determine leadership that way.

But I'm glad you noticed the False Flag attack. We may disagree on interpretation but it's clear you were paying attention.

The upper class humans who were desperate for the power they didn't have to prevent their deaths?? The humans were in no way powerful. They were the tattered remains of humanity. It is a HUGE leap to compare them to the upper class. They were DYING without the help of the natives...which reminds me of the old stories of the white people who were dying until the Native Americans saved their lives. Trusting the white man didn't get them very far though.

So, yes...Koba did follow that story of taking power for himself and ruling with an iron fist..but he turned into tyrant in a movie about racism. The movie simply shifted gears in the final act. It seems as if they wanted to make the white man the villain the entire film...and then realized that the apes had to be the bad guys, so they turned Koba into Hitler. The first two thirds of the movie are just FULL of race allegories...and then it just abruptly becomes Animal Farm/Hitler. To me...that story should be told in another movie, after the apes have won. That way, you have two sides arguing over whether to live in peace or to become the monsters they despised. That is a story worth 2 hours.

 

[jmc]

Oh for christ sake, some of you are putting way too much thought into this.

 

[samsnee]

They're showing Rise on cable. Koba was wrong in his actions in Dawn, but Rise really makes him even more tragic.

 

[Heretic]

Oh for christ sake, some of you are putting way too much thought into this.

It's a sci-fi movie...where if you aren't thinking hard about it, you likely aren't "getting" the full message of the movie. If there is no secondary "point" to a sci-fi movie, then odds are they just wanted to make a dumb film like Transformers. This isn't Transformers.

I believe that you should be able to describe most good sci-fi movies without mentioning the actual sci-fi elements. "Humans vs aliens" means NOTHING...but "the injustice of South African Apartheid" DOES mean something...and that story is the secondary story in District 9. If you watched District 9 and DIDN'T pick up on that, then you missed a part of the film and shouldn't say that people are putting too much thought into it.

It's like when people say "all zombie movies are the same." Um...no...Dawn of the Dead is about consumerism...The Returned is about the AIDS crisis...Antisocial is about addiction to social media...Dead Girl is about misogyny etc etc etc. If someone says "you're putting too much thought into stupid zombies" then they are missing much of the substance.

 

[TX85]

Debates and deep analysis like these is why I don't post much in movie threads anymore,Films are meant for entertainment and not to be dissected by every little piece and debating what it all really meant and of it had more deep messages

But whatever,anyway..I was hoping they'd mention Will's fate,I assume he simply just died with the virus but would have liked it confirmed somehow

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The upper class humans who were desperate for the power they didn't have to prevent their deaths?? The humans were in no way powerful. They were the tattered remains of humanity. It is a HUGE leap to compare them to the upper class. They were DYING without the help of the natives...which reminds me of the old stories of the white people who were dying until the Native Americans saved their lives. Trusting the white man didn't get them very far though.

So, yes...Koba did follow that story of taking power for himself and ruling with an iron fist..but he turned into tyrant in a movie about racism. The movie simply shifted gears in the final act. It seems as if they wanted to make the white man the villain the entire film...and then realized that the apes had to be the bad guys, so they turned Koba into Hitler. The first two thirds of the movie are just FULL of race allegories...and then it just abruptly becomes Animal Farm/Hitler. To me...that story should be told in another movie, after the apes have won. That way, you have two sides arguing over whether to live in peace or to become the monsters they despised. That is a story worth 2 hours.

I'd say the humans in Dawn were Farmer Jones from Animal Farm. They're desperate because they lose control of the farm. They even ask for reinforcement from other farmers just like the book.

and first Koba was a black guy performing a minstrel show and now he's Hitler? Which one is it?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Oh for christ sake, some of you are putting way too much thought into this.

Perhaps but where's the harm in debating the symbolism.

I'm kind of glad to have an opportunity to challenge different takes people had.

 

[jmc]

It's a sci-fi movie...where if you aren't thinking hard about it, you likely aren't "getting" the full message of the movie. If there is no secondary "point" to a sci-fi movie, then odds are they just wanted to make a dumb film like Transformers. This isn't Transformers.

I believe that you should be able to describe most good sci-fi movies without mentioning the actual sci-fi elements. "Humans vs aliens" means NOTHING...but "the injustice of South African Apartheid" DOES mean something...and that story is the secondary story in District 9. If you watched District 9 and DIDN'T pick up on that, then you missed a part of the film and shouldn't say that people are putting too much thought into it.

It's like when people say "all zombie movies are the same." Um...no...Dawn of the Dead is about consumerism...The Returned is about the AIDS crisis...Antisocial is about addiction to social media...Dead Girl is about misogyny etc etc etc. If someone says "you're putting too much thought into stupid zombies" then they are missing much of the substance.

It's one thing to have meanings and commentary, it's another thing to have a film be commentating on something specific. Dawn doesn't do any of that, it's not a allegory for something that's happened to a specific group of people, in fact it's kinda generic because both species are free in the first place. So yeah from what I've read over the last couple of pages it does seem like too much thought is being put into it, or at the very lest too much of an attempt to link things to something else.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Debates and deep analysis like these is why I don't post much in movie threads anymore,Films are meant for entertainment and not to be dissected by every little piece and debating what it all really meant and of it had more deep messages

But whatever,anyway..I was hoping they'd mention Will's fate,I assume he simply just died with the virus but would have liked it confirmed somehow

Wow, we're not supposed to debate the social commentary for a PotA movie?

I guess Tim Burton should write and direct part 3 then.

Then you can avoid any allegory discussions since everything about the movie will be skin deep.

 

[Golgo-13]

Back to the movie:

When Oldman's character tells Malcolm they had reached the military on the com, i thought he was bluffing to distract him, but since it was brought up at the end that the military was indeed on the way, i guess he was telling the truth.

Not to mention that in the trailer they show what looks like a Navy ship showing up, so this could be a deleted scene that was meant to show this.

 

[Heretic]

I'd say the humans in Dawn were Farmer Jones from Animal Farm. They're desperate because they lose control of the farm. They even ask for reinforcement from other farmers just like the book.

and first Koba was a black guy performing a minstrel show and now he's Hitler? Which one is it?

In a sense, BOTH. That is my point. The message is confused because in one scene he is lowering himself to performing a minstrel act to appease the white man, and soon after is committing a false flag attack and naming himself ruler of the world. I could have dealt with another movie to show the growth there. Turning him into a tyrant in a movie that was otherwise about white racism against minorities lets the air out of the initial allegories and leaves us with at best the message that all societies are at risk of tyranny and at worse leaves the message that the white man was right to commit genocide and oppression because the natives eventually would have waged war and committed genocide themselves.

 

[TX85]

Yeah yeah whatever debate away

 

[TX85]

Back to the movie:

When Oldman's character tells Malcolm they had reached the military on the com, i thought he was bluffing to distract him, but since it was brought up at the end that the military was indeed on the way, i guess he was telling the truth.

Not to mention that in the trailer they show what looks like a Navy ship showing up, so this could be a deleted scene that was meant to show this.

Yeah was thinking about that too,could be

 

[Heretic]

It's one thing to have meanings and commentary, it's another thing to have a film be commentating on something specific. Dawn doesn't do any of that, it's not a allegory for something that's happened to a specific group of people, in fact it's kinda generic because both species are free in the first place. So yeah from what I've read over the last couple of pages it does seem like too much thought is being put into it, or at the very lest too much of an attempt to link things to something else.

So...let me get this straight...

People venture into a new, undeveloped land. They meet natives there who they view as savages, but the natives (whose leader wears face paint) resist war and in fact offer to help the visitors who are new to their land. However, the newcomers are planning to permanently settle there, alter the way of life there, and exterminate the natives if it is convenient for them to do so.

Sounds like the white man arriving in America and meeting the natives to me. And from what I recall from history class, the natives were not slaves, so both the settlers and natives were free.

 

[samsnee]

I doubt the writers were looking to recreate Animal Farm. That being said, there's nothing wrong when some people do see parallels to other works of literature. What is wrong is when they assume it's obvious and anyone who disagrees only wants "a dumb action movie like Transformers".

There should be a Godwin's Law for movie discussions that says inevitably someone will tell another poster that they probably enjoy "dumb movies like Transformers" if they don't agree that a film has deeper meaning than what is presented on screen.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I doubt the writers were looking to recreate Animal Farm. That being said, there's nothing wrong when some people do see parallels to other works of literature. What is wrong is when they assume it's obvious and anyone who disagrees only wants "a dumb action movie like Transformers".

There should be a Godwin's Law for movie discussions that says inevitably someone will tell another poster that they probably enjoy "dumb movies like Transformers" if they don't agree that a film has deeper meaning than what is presented on screen.

I find it weird that some people want the conversation to remain skin deep for even layered sci-fi movies.

What's the point of making PotA movies if we don't discuss the themes?

 

[jmc]

So...let me get this straight...

People venture into a new, undeveloped land. They meet natives there who they view as savages, but the natives (whose leader wears face paint) resist war and in fact offer to help the visitors who are new to their land. However, the newcomers are planning to permanently settle there, alter the way of life there, and exterminate the natives if it is convenient for them to do so.

Sounds like the white man arriving in America and meeting the natives to me. And from what I recall from history class, the natives were not slaves, so both the settlers and natives were free.

That is a complete bastardisation of the film. The big thing you've seemed to overlook is that the humans in this story are not acting out of imperial expansion or for profit or natural resources for trade like what has happened throughout history, they were acting out of survival, that is the difference and why comparisons to actual historical events is flawed. The humans are a shadow of the species they were, if anything they've got it worse than the apes. All actions from both sides have some level of justification, humans included.

 

[Heretic]

I doubt the writers were looking to recreate Animal Farm. That being said, there's nothing wrong when some people do see parallels to other works of literature. What is wrong is when they assume it's obvious and anyone who disagrees only wants "a dumb action movie like Transformers".

There should be a Godwin's Law for movie discussions that says inevitably someone will tell another poster that they probably enjoy "dumb movies like Transformers" if they don't agree that a film has deeper meaning than what is presented on screen.

The problem is that many movies DO have a deeper meaning that people reject because they just expect every movie to be dumb sci-fi.

Transformers is a wildly successful, incredibly stupid, franchise. OF COURSE it is the go-to example because virtually everyone will recognize the example. If I were to throw out Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared Syn as an example, no one would freaking know what I was talking about. It makes no sense to complain about an example when it is the best example available to describe a point.

What the meaning is can be debated...and we've seen cases where the people involved have later clarified that popular interpretations were wrong (for instance, Ray Bradbury once told a room full of people that Fahrenheit 451 is NOT about censorship, and they told him that he was wrong about his interpretation of his own book!).

There are sci-fi movies that don't have a point to make. But making a point about society or politics etc is such a MASSIVE cornerstone of sci-fi that one does a disservice to the genre to not engage in the discussion.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Koba was probably the most interesting film version of Stalin I've ever seen!