Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - Part 1

[Golgo-13]

Saw it again this morning. There is no laws about "no" on the wall. So to whoever was saying that, there was not.

Still superb film on second viewing.

You could feel the audience creeping to the edge of their seat when:

Spoiler

Caesar says: "Koba weaker."

That would be me. I never said it was in this movie, but that in the original series "no" is a forbidden word, and that when Malcolm screamed it at one of the Apes in Dawn, i thought it was going to be addressed.

Wouldn't the state of the world in the original series be still quite some time in the future from this one anyway? The apes still have a long way to go before they achieve that level of a civilization.

Several thousand years. So there is plenty of time (and movies/events) that could occur between this new reboot and the original film. Jaffa and co said that they plan on doing something with the Icarus in one of the sequels. Considering the Icarus is lost in space, maybe in these new set of movies they could show the rescue crew being sent after the Icarus - that end up being the crew that appear in Beneath The Planet of The Apes…?

 

[TX85]

The NO law could be incorporated in the next film during or after the war

 

[Golgo-13]

Gary Oldmans character dropping the f-bomb. It seems that MPAA is making a shift now as to what's acceptable to the the designated age groups. I hope it reverts back to the way it was back in the 80's. I remember seeing movies like Clash of The Titans and Beastmaster as a kid; they had boobies and butts galore on full display. That wouldn't fly today (the boobs anyway) but we'll see. We're getting there - with Hugh Jackman's bare ass on full display and the F-bomb also being dropped in the last two X-Men films.

 

[Schlosser85]

PG-13 movies are allowed one F-bomb (which is totally arbitrary to me, but whatever)

 

[terry78]

Yeah, the AMC over here has a back door that the employees basically prop open with a pole or something to sneak out for a smoke break, and of course they have their little friends who wanna get in.

 

[Heretic]

I liked it a lot, though I felt that it took on a bit too much.

The white man coming into the native territory to turn nature into modern technology, which eventually would result in displacing/killing the natives...who many of the white men see as savages. Yeah...I get that...and it is a worthwhile allegory. The movie was fantastic for most of this. I also appreciated the African American allegory scene...where the white men wanted to kill the ape...until the ape started a shuckin and jivin minstrel show to entertain the white men, therefore earning a reprieve.

To me, the failure came when it segued away from the conceit of the film and turned more into an Animal Farm type story. While I think that this is a worthwhile story to tell, I feel like maybe it could have been used in a later movie, maybe after the humans were enslaved and the apes ruled the world. To me, the apes were the good guys in this movie...until they became the typical blockbuster action films "I want to rule the world for some reason" bad guys. This franchise had to eventually cross this bridge, I'm just not sure that it was needed in this film just to pass the blame onto apes instead of man. Because of that, the final message is "Yeah, we committed genocide against the Native Americans...but we had to because they were the bad guys who were going to kill us if we didn't kill them first" when it should have been "we brought war upon us by causing the clash of civilizations...then violently encroaching on their land for our own gain because we felt that they were beneath us." Maybe that would be a bit too much like Avatar...but it basically would have been Avatar done right. As is, I'm not sure that I like the message, which knocks the movie down a few pegs for me. But that doesn't mean I didn't like it...I really, REALLY did.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I liked it a lot, though I felt that it took on a bit too much.

The white man coming into the native territory to turn nature into modern technology, which eventually would result in displacing/killing the natives...who many of the white men see as savages. Yeah...I get that...and it is a worthwhile allegory. The movie was fantastic for most of this. I also appreciated the African American allegory scene...where the white men wanted to kill the ape...until the ape started a shuckin and jivin minstrel show to entertain the white men, therefore earning a reprieve.

Wow, I gotta wonder how common this interpretation is.

In real life, I don't think a black man "acting black" would stop an enemy combatant from shooting them.

To me, the failure came when it segued away from the conceit of the film and turned more into an Animal Farm type story. While I think that this is a worthwhile story to tell, I feel like maybe it could have been used in a later movie, maybe after the humans were enslaved and the apes ruled the world. To me, the apes were the good guys in this movie...until they became the typical blockbuster action films "I want to rule the world for some reason" bad guys. This franchise had to eventually cross this bridge, I'm just not sure that it was needed in this film just to pass the blame onto apes instead of man. Because of that, the final message is "Yeah, we committed genocide against the Native Americans...but we had to because they were the bad guys who were going to kill us if we didn't kill them first" when it should have been "we brought war upon us by causing the clash of civilizations...then violently encroaching on their land for our own gain because we felt that they were beneath us." Maybe that would be a bit too much like Avatar...but it basically would have been Avatar done right. As is, I'm not sure that I like the message, which knocks the movie down a few pegs for me. But that doesn't mean I didn't like it...I really, REALLY did.

Again I disagree. This was the perfect opportunity to explore the idea that in most revolutions the oppressed become the oppressor. Since Rise showed the revolution it's only natural this movie show the next stage.

and the fact that you recognized the Animal Farm themes should clue you in. This series is choosing to view the conflict between human and apes as a class warfare allegory rather than a race war allegory.

 

[eddy]

re: Heretic. I think you're reading too much into the metaphor. And I think its racist to compare a chimp doing circus acts with blacks doing a minstrel show. But thats just me.

 

[danoyse]

I don't know if it's because I've seen a lot more movies in theaters this year, but 2014 so far has shown me that theater audiences are just getting worse and worse.

Oh, we had one of those today too. I heard one saying as we were leaving that he liked the movie because "I got to take a long-ass nap."

And yes, let's bring a baby to a movie theater packed with over a hundred strangers that could be carrying any number of diseases, to watch a violent blockbuster film that takes full advantage of it's sound system. At 10 o'clock at night.

I went to a show like that once where not only did they bring a baby, they actually yelled for everyone to keep it down because the baby was trying to sleep. Really happened, I kid you not.

Anyway, this was an outrageously good movie. Easily one of the best of the year so far.

 

[terry78]

You saw how quick Carver was to shoot one and pretty much felt no remorse at all through the flick, and even blatantly disregarded Caesar's no guns rule.

 

[Ultron-5]

That movie was AWESOME!!!

 

[Heretic]

re: Heretic. I think you're reading too much into the metaphor. And I think its racist to compare a chimp doing circus acts with blacks doing a minstrel show. But thats just me.

OF COURSE IT'S RACIST!!!! That was the point of the scene! To show that some white people see no value in these people besides the old racist minstrel shows.

Again...let me be clear...I think the movie was INTENTIONALLY showing that the old Uncle Tom/Bojangles routine was racist. That should not be mistaken for ME being racist.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You saw how quick Carver was to shoot one and pretty much felt no remorse at all through the flick, and even blatantly disregarded Caesar's no guns rule.

That's the only plothole for me.

Why would they bring a trigger happy, hot-head on their important, second visit with the apes?

 

[addison81]

They explained. He's the only one who knows the dam system.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

OF COURSE IT'S RACIST!!!! That was the point of the scene! To show that some white people see no value in these people besides the old racist minstrel shows.

Again...let me be clear...I think the movie was INTENTIONALLY showing that the old Uncle Tom/Bojangles routine was racist. That should not be mistaken for ME being racist.

Where and how did the movie imply the ape represented a black man?

All that was apparent was that Koba pretended to be a normal ape to fool the humans. Nothing about his ape mannerisms looked like a minstrel show.

 

[Heretic]

Wow, I gotta wonder how common this interpretation is.

In real life, I don't think a black man "acting black" would stop an enemy combatant from shooting them.



Again I disagree. This was the perfect opportunity to explore the idea that in most revolutions the oppressed become the oppressor. Since Rise showed the revolution it's only natural this movie show the next stage.

and the fact that you recognized the Animal Farm themes should clue you in. This series is choosing to view the conflict between human and apes as a class warfare allegory rather than a race war allegory.

Back in the day, blacks were shoved into those old smiling negro Bojangles type roles. Modern blacks look back at that as Uncle Toms serving the racist white men to the detriment of their people. To me, it was clear commentary on that sort of thing.

Rise BARELY showed a revolution. It was the slaves becoming free. This movie was the white man encroaching on native land. Yes, eventually the oppressed will become the oppressor. We know that from the first series. However, did it have to happen ALREADY? I'd like to see a movie about the apes defeating the humans and then enslaving them and treating them bad in return, using their previous treatment as justification, with Caesar's side arguing that they have now become the monsters. That didn't need to be told in the latter third of this movie.

And I'm not getting a class warfare allegory...like...at all.

 

[Heretic]

Where and how did the movie imply the ape represented a black man?

In my opinion, and I could be wrong....

And keep in mind that I am NOT saying that the movie is claiming that black people are apes...any more than Avatar called Native Americans aliens from another planet. It is not meant to be disrespectful to blacks...its meant to show how racist the old minstrel shows were.

There is a scene where humans catch an ape that is spying on them. They have their guns trained on him, because they sense that he is potentially a violent threat. So...he does the "shuckin' and jivin'" routine...acting like a moron, walking around all goofy...so they start laughing at his entertaining and self-degrading display. They let him walk off and as soon as his face is out of their view, he shows how angry he was to have to lower himself to pretending to be a moron just to save his life.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Back in the day, blacks were shoved into those old smiling negro Bojangles type roles. Modern blacks look back at that as Uncle Tom's serving the racist white men to the detriment of their people. To me, it was clear commentary on that sort of thing.

Rise BARELY showed a revolution. It was the slaves becoming free. This movie was the white man encroaching on native land. Yes, eventually the oppressed will become the oppressor. We know that from the first series. However, did it have to happen ALREADY? I'd like to see a movie about the apes defeating the humans and then enslaving them and treating them bad in return, using their previous treatment as justification, with Caesar's side arguing that they have now become the monsters. That didn't need to be told in the latter third of this movie.

And I'm not getting a class warfare allegory...like...at all.

I'm aware the early PotA movies referenced the Civil Rights movement. This was made obvious with the dialogue.

This series uses Animal Farm plotlines almost directly.

Animal Farm is about class warfare. Is it not?

 

[Golgo-13]

I agree, it's not a class warfare thing.

Class indicates that they are the same specie, that just have different privileges due to any number of factors. The apes and humans are two different races. One race thinks they are superior over the other.

Therefore it's racism.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

In my opinion, and I could be wrong....

And keep in mind that I am NOT saying that the movie is claiming that black people are apes...any more than Avatar called Native Americans aliens from another planet. It is not meant to be disrespectful to blacks...its meant to show how racist the old minstrel shows were.

There is a scene where humans catch an ape that is spying on them. They have their guns trained on him, because they sense that he is potentially a violent threat. So...he does the "shuckin' and jivin'" routine...acting like a moron, walking around all goofy...so they start laughing at his entertaining and self-degrading display. They let him walk off and as soon as his face is out of their view, he shows how angry he was to have to lower himself to pretending to be a moron just to save his life.

He simply pretended to be a normal ape, nothing more.

 

[danoyse]

There is a scene where humans catch an ape that is spying on them. They have their guns trained on him, because they sense that he is potentially a violent threat. So...he does the "shuckin' and jivin'" routine...acting like a moron, walking around all goofy...so they start laughing at his entertaining and self-degrading display. They let him walk off and as soon as his face is out of their view, he shows how angry he was to have to lower himself to pretending to be a moron just to save his life.

Koba did that so they wouldn't shoot him. He didn't make the angry face because he was mad about lowering himself, he went back to they angry look he had before they even came in because he'd found their arsenal. The goofy routine was just a method of escape. Koba was always angry as far as humans were concerned.

He also did that routine later just so he could get close to them and get the gun. Again, it wasn't lowering himself, it was a trick on Koba's part.

 

[DA_Champion]

It's general metaphoric oppression. The plot structure does not fit Afircan Americans at all. In this movie the apes are running a society that is separate socially and geographically. If anything Iraq and Afghanistan are better analogies but I don't think that was intentional.

 

[danoyse]

On another note, I was happy that

Spoiler

they didn't kill off Maurice. I love the scenes between him and Caesar.

 

[Golgo-13]

The two races are segregated. This could be viewed as mirroring the pre-civil rights era.

 

[DA_Champion]

I found that Caeser looked too much like Andy Serkis, it was distracting.