Hawkeye Episode 5: Ronin (Spoiler Discussion)

[metaphysician]

So basically John Walker is working for Kingpin? Because he was hired by Val, who hired Yelena, who is also working for Eleanor Bishop.

I feel bad for John Walker. It seems his future character arc is "Realizing he made a deal with the devil".

 

[metaphysician]

Someone said that when Hulk snapped everyone back he added the caveat that It would be in a safe location.

How the gems would know is beyond me but that's enough of a explanation that it doesn't matter to me anymore haha

I mean, its a cosmic macguffin able to effect the entire universe, is it really that unbelievable that it can be given instructions of "Don't be a literal genie, enact the intent"?

 

[metaphysician]

If someone stole that painting and replaced it with a piece of canvas with white masonry paint, would Kingpin even know the difference?

He's a meticulous obsessive, of course he'd notice.

( Whether you live or not, would depend on if he found it amusing. . . )

 

[TheVileOne]

It will probably be 42 minutes and 16 minutes of post credits.

If it's 59 minutes, that's probably like a sizable chunk of credits. 7-8 minutes probably.

 

[Dark Raven]

Someone said that when Hulk snapped everyone back he added the caveat that It would be in a safe location.

How the gems would know is beyond me but that's enough of a explanation that it doesn't matter to me anymore haha

If someone were sitting in a toilet stall in mid dump when they disappeared, and during those 5 years that toilet was taken out and replaced with a public cafe area, then although they might technically be safe when they reappeared they would be highly embarrassed.

 

[Iceman]

Its interesting if that is enough time, but I hope so.

Good that it’s long but I don’t think they can do everything I would have wanted them to in that time.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Good that it’s long but I don’t think they can do everything I would have wanted them to in that time.

That's why it's connected because questions will be answered in other projects.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yelena’s scenes in this episode were easily the best moments in this entire show. They should have introduced her WAAYYYYY sooner to inject some life into this middling series.

 

[Dark Raven]

Marvel should give Yelena her own show instead of Echo. Echo is boring and doesn't have much personality. I can't imagine sitting through a whole mini series with her. It would be more for Vincent D'Onofrio than Alaqua Cox.

But there's far more that could be told with Yelena, and Florence Pugh can easily carry a show like that on her own.

 

[Kev4000]

I feel bad for John Walker. It seems his future character arc is "Realizing he made a deal with the devil".

This guy has really bad luck. In the right hands, I can see a good redemption arc where he is the one who finishs Val after realizing about her motivation.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Marvel should give Yelena her own show instead of Echo. Echo is boring and doesn't have much personality. I can't imagine sitting through a whole mini series with her. It would be more for Vincent D'Onofrio than Alaqua Cox.

But there's far more that could be told with Yelena, and Florence Pugh can easily carry a show like that on her own.

Pugh is legit busy. She probably doesn't have time to film a show. A movie on the other hand...

 

[Iceman]

Mockingbird or bust next episode.

 

[sdgrandia86]

Hmm, I enjoy what Maya and kid-Maya brought to the table in terms of performance. Maya is out for revenge and her signing is very abrupt/quick/short whereas someone like Makkaris who is more curious and in a better place her signing is more elegant. Maya facial expression portrays her rage and, in part, confusion, as she tries to make sense of what's going on in her; at least that's my take.

Clint signing seems lazy but it could be because him being hard of hearing is a recent diagnosis and is learning along with his family. When talking with Maya, she is able to understand him in part of his signing but mostly by reading his lips.

As someone who works with special needs kids, seeing a superhero show led by a Native American deaf amputee is something that peeks my interest. Hopefully Maya gets developed more and gets out of her shell.

I can see why people may not be that into it though.

 

[Enriquespy]

If someone were sitting in a toilet stall in mid dump when they disappeared, and during those 5 years that toilet was taken out and replaced with a public cafe area, then although they might technically be safe when they reappeared they would be highly embarrassed.

Yeah, but...

What happens to the poop? What part of it got blipped? None? All? just the bits still inside him?

Questions!!!


Episode was fun.

 

[Heretic]

There's no reason to believe that John Walker works for Kingpin.

Val has a team...and she rents out her team to people who pay her. No reason to think that Kingpin has or has not had a reason to hire that agent. I tend to doubt that Kingpin is the real boss of that team...unless they are using him in the Norman Osborne role in the MCU.

 

[CaptainWagner]

There's no reason to believe that John Walker works for Kingpin.

Val has a team...and she rents out her team to people who pay her. No reason to think that Kingpin has or has not had a reason to hire that agent. I tend to doubt that Kingpin is the real boss of that team...unless they are using him in the Norman Osborne role in the MCU.

Yeah, I don't get where this idea that Val is an employee of Eleanor or Kingpin has come from. It seems fairly obvious to me that she's a contractor, hiring out her agents to clients like Eleanor.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yeah, I don't get where this idea that Val is an employee of Eleanor or Kingpin has come from. It seems fairly obvious to me that she's a contractor, hiring out her agents to clients like Eleanor.

What if she's married to Kingpin?

 

[psylockolussus]

It will probably be 42 minutes and 16 minutes of post credits.

Add a minute or two for the previously on and the Marvel Studios logo.

 

[metaphysician]

This guy has really bad luck. In the right hands, I can see a good redemption arc where he is the one who finishs Val after realizing about her motivation.

I mean, its not *really* bad luck, so much as bad judgement. He didn't ask important questions like "Who is this person and what do they want", because Val was telling him stuff he really wanted to hear and believe. This is ultimately why John Walker isn't a hero. . . though I wouldn't say he's a flat villain either. He succumbed to temptation, but it still needed to be a temptation.

 

[Dark Raven]

Florence Pugh Improvised Yelena's Cutlery Line, Plus 28 More Behind-The-Scenes Facts From "Hawkeye" Directors Bert And Bertie

 

[Pink Ranger]

Wouldn't be surprised if Clint feels some guilt, because maybe during the 5-year Ronin blip Fisk was using him to destroy other crimelords and increase his own power.

 

[Dark Raven]

I got the impression they (Kinping-Val-Eleanor) were working together and Kinping is going to use her resources to and the Dark Avengers as a way to rebuild his empire now that the main Avengers are out of the picture. Much like Mysterio he would want to use the vacuum created after the snap to give people security. Thanos, the snap, a frozen celestial in the ocean and another one one's head popped up in the sky. People would want to look for someone to help.

If that's the route they are going then Fisk could not only have a role in Echo but a hidden one in Armor Wars.

It's Kingpin. Kin ping is when you get a ping that you've been in close contact with a next of kin who has tested positive for Covid.

 

[MilkmanDan]

This would have ignored what Nat did for him in Endgame. Bringing him back from that edge. It would ignore the entire conversation Kate and Yelena have.

I don't know. I feel it would have acknowledged Endgame while giving more weight to his speech to Nat. Certainly more than him apologizing for using Ronin suit to scare someone he arguably could have scared even without it.

I think it would have also worked in the context of the conversation between Kate and Yelena. They argued over whether Clint is a hero or a murderer. And the answer is that he's both. He has helped to save more people than he has killed. But he still killed those people.

 

[TheVileOne]

All that time spent on macaroni and cheese and we couldn't get 30 seconds of actual Kingpin?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't know. I feel it would have acknowledged Endgame while giving more weight to his speech to Nat. Certainly more than him apologizing for using Ronin suit to scare someone he arguably could have scared even without it.

I think it would have also worked in the context of the conversation between Kate and Yelena. They argued over whether Clint is a hero or a murderer. And the answer is that he's both. He has helped to save more people than he has killed. But he still killed those people.

This completely ignores what Ronin represents. Hawkeye isn't a random murderer. Clint wasn't a random murderer. Much like James Bond he was an agent. A killer. There is a fundamental difference, like there is between when Thor kills someone and Loki does 95% of the time.

Ronin represent a world lost, and thus a Clint lost. He spent 5 years in the wilderness as Ronin. Trying to run from his pain in a seemingly "justified" bloodlust, but he knew it wasn't. When Nat brings him home, she's trying to save him from that, from what she was thanks to the Widow program. One that stole her from her family twice and tried to turn her into a monster. Who saved her from that? Clint. When she throws herself off that mountain she's giving him back the one thing she knows can help him. The one thing that helped her. Family.

Clint slipping back into Ronin proper misunderstands what Nat means to Clint, why he tries to talk to her before he goes, and what Ronin was. Yelena paints a distorted picture of Clint based on pain. Kate because of hero worship born through pain. But whose more right? It's Kate. Because like how Tony was Iron Man and Steve was Captain America, Kate is right. Clint is Hawkeye in his soul. And Hawkeye is a hero. Black Widow itself gave us more insight to this with how Nat is haunted by the presumed death of a child, that she never stopped looking for atonement for. You think Nat tries to blow up a little girl again? Of course not, and neither would Hawkeye.