Dawn of the Planet of the Apes - Part 2

[MrMaooz]

My ratings of the Planet of the Apes movies that I have seen so far:

PotA(1968)-9
PotA(2001)-5.5
Rise-9
Dawn-9.5

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

This movie was off the hizzay. I liked it more than the 1968 original. Sue me.

I would give it a 9.5 out of 10.

Was a kick ass movie.

I'll be adding this to my collection

 

[I SEE SPIDEY]

My ratings of the Planet of the Apes movies that I have seen so far:

PotA(1968)-9
PotA(2001)-5.5
Rise-9
Dawn-9.5

I gave POTA 2001 an 8.5 or a 9 in 2001 but of course that score dropped drastically after I gained some common sense.

 

[The Endless]

Dreyfus himself states that if the damn isn't working in so many days the humans will wipe out the apes.

Yea, but they got the dam working with the Apes help. Dreyfus just wanted survival for humans. He didn't want to go to war with the Apes if he didn't have to. Unfortunately, Koba made that decision for him.

I wonder if Malcolm should have told them about Dreyfus' plans from the get go. That the humans had guns and that they would use them if they couldn't fix the dam. It would have made Koba's discovery and misguided revelation meaningless

 

[MrMaooz]

"Ape don't kill ape!"

"You are not ape!"

The Caesar vs. Koba fights were amazing. Especially the one at the tower.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

The drama of that scene was epic. All the Apes looking on as the former leader and current leader have a one-on-one slugfest to determine who is the strongest and thus most fit to lead.

Great Sig Mr Maooz

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If there is one thing about this film that I think it will contribute to the discussions had on the net in forums like this, it's that we can finally put to bed the whole "CGI looks bad/It should have been done with make up and practical effects" arguments. The Mocap in the film was close to flawless to a layman. And the mocap performances were actual dramatic performances. I'm old enough to remember Harryhausen effects, Stan Winston designed make up an prosthetics, and all the rest. I have great affinity and love for the old films of my youth and what they accomplished. But there is just no way those old methods would have delivered a film like this.

 

[redhawk23]

If there is one thing about this film that I think it will contribute to the discussions had on the net in forums like this, it's that we can finally put to bed the whole "CGI looks bad/It should have been done with make up and practical effects" arguments. The Mocap in the film was close to flawless to a layman. And the mocap performances were actual dramatic performances. I'm old enough to remember Harryhausen effects, Stan Winston designed make up an prosthetics, and all the rest. I have great affinity and love for the old films of my youth and what they accomplished. But there is just no way those old methods would have delivered a film like this.

It just depends on what your trying to deliver. If you want straight up apes, as they really look in real life, then yeah this is the way to go. If you're going for a more evolved ape-man kind of look, then Rick Baker's work on the 2001 film is really the ideal.

Or look at a film like Inception. If you need Paris folding in half, then yes CGI is probably the most effective method to make that happen, but the snow compound and its later destruction? All model work and it looks great.

Andy Serkis is great but so is Doug Jones.

Different situations call for different tools.

 

[The Endless]

Yea Doug Jones' Abe Sapien from the Hellboy films is a fantastic creation too.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It just depends on what your trying to deliver. If you want straight up apes, as they really look in real life, then yeah this is the way to go. If you're going for a more evolved ape-man kind of look, then Rick Baker's work on the 2001 film is really the ideal.

Or look at a film like Inception. If you need Paris folding in half, then yes CGI is probably the most effective method to make that happen, but the snow compound and its later destruction? All model work and it looks great.

Andy Serkis is great but so is Doug Jones.

Different situations call for different tools.

Why is it the ideal though? Cuz, looking at what was done in this film, I have a feeling they just as easily could have done what you are suggesting and better at that. No offense to Baker, and I know people all love to talk about how great the work in Burton's Apes is, but for myself... Sorry. It's never particularly impressed me. The original Apes with Heston is amazing for it's time, but decades later and Baker mildly improved on it. That technique had reached a certain limit. I also didn't think that the finely crafted facial prosthetics were equaled in the the rest of the costuming. The actors had great faces but really strange and off putting bodies/suits. They moved in an ungainly and awkward way to me, one which totally signaled that it was a very uncomfortable suit to actually move all that quick in. Though I do think Thade's face and body suit were the best, even then... There's no competition. When I think of how the make up affects the actors performance, the time lost to touch ups, over heating, bathroom breaks... There's no comparison. Not to mention the shear numbers of Apes in one film as compared to the other, and the way they could truly move as another species... Sorry. Truly the future is now with this technique.

 

[redhawk23]

Abe's great but the Faun from Pan's labyrinth is also great work, very expressive.

 

[redhawk23]

Why is it the ideal though? Cuz, looking at what was done in this film, I have a feeling they just as easily could have done what you are suggesting and better at that. No offense to Baker, and I know people all love to talk about how great the work in Burton's Apes is, but for myself... Sorry. It's never particularly impressed me. The original Apes with Heston is amazing for it's time, but decades later and Baker mildly improved on it. That technique had reached a certain limit. I also didn't think that the finely crafted facial prosthetics were equaled in the the rest of the costuming. The actors had great faces but really strange and off putting bodies/suits. They moved in an ungainly and awkward way to me, one which totally signaled that it was a very uncomfortable suit to actually move all that quick in. Though I do think Thade's face and body suit were the best, even then... There's no competition. When I think of how the make up affects the actors performance, the time lost to touch ups, over heating, bathroom breaks... There's no comparison. Not to mention the shear numbers of Apes in one film as compared to the other, and the way they could truly move as another species... Sorry. Truly the future is now with this technique.

For that particular kind of ape I really don't see how CGI could improve upon the work in that film at all. The ungainly movement in that film comes from a choice in direction and movement coaching. Despite being human proportioned they chose to have the Actors try to move like apes. It doesn't work. As far as the look of the apes and the design though, CGI could certainly match it, but there'd be no reason to quibble with performance capture and collaborative performances- you just have a performance.

Why cgi a train going down the street when you can actually do it? Why spend time trying to replicate the look of a car crash in a virtual reality when you can just crash a car?


Are you really going to argue that motion capture saves time because people don't have to worry about makeup touch ups? What about the extra time needed to set up not just your main filming cameras but dozens of motion capture receivers, requiring not just the normal multiple takes, but multiple passes with different groups of mocap characters. Not to mention CGI certainly isn't cheaper. There's also the difficulties presented in editing the film as whole scenes aren't available until mere weeks before the film is released. The quick editing process was really obvious with this film and Reeves himself has spoken about it. Scenes played differently once fully rendered after being interpreted by animators and it led to a lot reworking, notably the ending of the film itself.

This isn't just about apes in particular. All methods have their draw backs and strengths.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

CGI & Motion Capture are the future and were outstanding in Dawn but make-up and practical effects still give a feeling of more authenticity.

Both Abe Sapien & Hellboy are amongst some of the best make-up jobs around. Nightcrawler, The Yellow Bastard & Marv too.

But some are just better suited for CGI like Dr Manhattan & Groot for example.

The key is knowing when to go CGI and when to go practical. There are times when a CGI version of a character that could've been done better in practical has happened and vice versa, Thanos comes to mind I think he could've looked more real if done in practical effects with prosthetics and make-up.

 

[Tim_Riggins]

They probably did tests for Thanos for example on GOTG, I hardly think nobodies on an Internet forum would know how to do it better than professionals. No offence, but if some characters go CG instead of prosthetics, there is a reason for that, ie The Hobbit, I Am Legend, Avatar, etc, etc

 

[redhawk23]

They probably did tests for Thanos for example on GOTG, I hardly think nobodies on an Internet forum would know how to do it better than professionals. No offence, but if some characters go CG instead of prosthetics, there is a reason for that, ie The Hobbit, I Am Legend, Avatar, etc, etc

There was little reason or benefit for the monsters in I Am Legend to be wholly CGI. I could see going that route in shots where they were doing physically impossible things like jumping super high while stampeding and such but other than that it really detracts from the film. Directors make choices but that doesn't make them infallible.

Jackson emphasized that he went with more CGI work for the orcs in the Hobbit films because he didn't want to be limited to human anatomy but for the most part they didn't end up really moving away from what was done with more consistent quality a decade ago with practical effects. Jackson's problem also is that he does not give effects artists time to work. He changes his mind repeatedly until the last minute. WETA obviously can do pretty much the best work in the world if you can give them the time to do so.

 

[redhawk23]

While the situation was better in this film than in Rise, I still felt that Caesar was less real looking than pretty much any other ape. He was more authentically ape like in this film but I still feel like they anthropormophized him too much when designing him initially. Koba, Rocket and particularly Maurice look more like real apes that I've actually seen.

Sweet jeebus, Maurice in this film is unparalleled CGI work.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dreyfus himself states that if the damn isn't working in so many days the humans will wipe out the apes.

And that would be war based on the apes not allowing them a chance at survival, which is exactly why Caesar compromises. Malcolm pleads a case for the apes, and his leadership listens. And the plan, even with all the rough patches, works. And then Koba ruins everything, not just by acting the humans but assassinating his own leader and peacekeeper.

 

[The Endless]

While the situation was better in this film than in Rise, I still felt that Caesar was less real looking than pretty much any other ape. He was more authentically ape like in this film but I still feel like they anthropormophized him too much when designing him initially. Koba, Rocket and particularly Maurice look more like real apes that I've actually seen.

Sweet jeebus, Maurice in this film is unparalleled CGI work.

I think that was intended though. It's very noticeable that Caesar walks and moves more like a human. Thanks to his upbringing.

 

[redhawk23]

Its not just a matter of his movement but even the way his face looks. It certainly was intentional to make him more emotive and such but I never have a moment with Caesar where I think "holy crap that just is real" like I do with Maurice in both films. In rise I at first thought Maurice was real for a moment before realizing that would not make any sense.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I think that was intended though. It's very noticeable that Caesar walks and moves more like a human. Thanks to his upbringing.

Yeah, I think it is very much on purpose. There is one scene, where Caesar enters a room out of focus, and for a few seconds I thought it was a human. I believe it is the scene inside the dam, where him and Koba throw down the first time.

 

[redhawk23]

Those people from Fox Animation that make the "Scientifically Accurate" cartoon videos such as "Scientifically Accurate Duck Tales" etc. should do a song about how Koba the bonobo tries to solve all his conflicts by having sex with everyone.

 

[The Endless]

I think it even goes as far as Caesars facial expressions. He doesn't do the "ape faces" where they pucker their lips or show their teeth, like Koba and co. But he emotes more like a human.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Its not just a matter of his movement but even the way his face looks. It certainly was intentional to make him more emotive and such but I never have a moment with Caesar where I think "holy crap that just is real" like I do with Maurice in both films. In rise I at first thought Maurice was real for a moment before realizing that would not make any sense.

I think that is very intentional as well. He wasn't a "nature" ape. He was basically Blade. A birth altered by the experiments on his mother. Add that he grew up with humans and emotes in a very similar manner, I think that is exactly what they were going for.

 

[redhawk23]

The real reason is that its easier to map human emotions onto a more emotive, more human like cgi creature. While it may help with emoting it also just make him less real for me, particularly when he is on screen with other apes.

Thankfully in aging Caesar and tweaking his design they toned down that aspect a lot, Caesar sticks out less.

 

[The Endless]

Yea he never grew up with apes, so it makes sense that he hasn't developed their communication techniques with the different facial expressions etc.